Yesterday, my fellow countryman Mike Stanton left the following comment in response to a previous commenter about his belief regarding how his child had become autistic:
There may not be a single answer. But that does not mean we can pick any answer we like. There has to be some scientific validity to any hypothesis.
This is such a good comment. It reflects something I’ve felt increasingly over the last year or so – the increase in pseudo-scientific theories posed as a ‘menu’ for parents to choose from. It reminds me of sauntering up to the counter at McDonalds and saying – “I’ll have one of those, one of those and one of those.”
I recently came across a post made on the Onibasu list which illustrates my point. This is the signature of the poster in question. Its a list of treatments she’s trying on her child:
My son is using M-B12 (Hopewell) since Dec 2003, Wellness Essential GSH (had been using TD-Glut but levels were always low), TD-DMSA (3 on and 4 off – 8 hr schedule) (Lee Silsby) since Oct 2005, (Used TD-DMPS Jan 2005 ?Oct 2005) TD-ALA (Lee Silsby) since Oct 2005, TD-LDN (Wellness) Since Oct 2005, (High Tech Health) FIR sauna, Magnetico bed, High Tech Health’s water machine, and a lot of supplements.) GFGFSF diet.
The post in question is also asking about Lupron. Thats a total of 12 separate treatments, ‘a lot of’ supplements and she probably is in the process of adding Lupron to that list as we speak.
And can you Supersize me please?
What worries me is even a bog-standard bottle of Asprin has a warning on it about responsible use. Is it really sensible to risk giving one’s child such a massive cocktail of drugs on the word of someone who quite obviously is more interested in money than science?
Medicine shouldn’t be such a pick and mix affair. Its quite worrying about what this reveals about how the West’s perception of doctors has changed. Doctors who have undergone 7 years plus of training are viewed with suspicion and sued at the drop of an opinion whilst ‘doctors’ who have shops rather than practices are lauded as heroes.
How did it come to this? When did McScience start to replace science? How did it come to pass that the process of peer review (designed to give a good _starting point_ to a paper) meant nothing and the process of buying an entry in a pseudoscience rag or buying a misleading advertmeant everything?
I’m nobodies scientist. It takes me longer to understand the science because I need to go through it time after time so I understand all the words and understand the implications. I ask questions of actual scientists and get them to translate for me so it stands to reason to me that for an article to be peer reviewed in a decent journal assures that the standard of science in that article will be fairly high. It might not make the paper _right_ , but at least we can be sure its been thought through properly.
Surely that needs to be the absolute baseline of quality we should come to expect for papers that discuss such important questions. Otherwise we really do end up at the counter of McScience – like kids in a sweet shop, taking what we think we’ll like rather than what we need.
Left Brain Right Brain 
I would love to see any chelation type safety studies/effectiveness studies. No issue from me on that. Now, if we could just get the same studies done on say, the flu vaccine…
We couldn’t agree more.
I wonder what happens when you inject a newborn baby (over and over again) with a substance that he/she is allergic to?:
http://www.upi.com/HealthBusiness/view.php?StoryID=20060303-034259-2712r
I guess it’s no big deal.
– Sue M.
BTW, chelation studies have been done, just not with autism. For example, it is believed that chelation is quite beneficial in treating heart disease, based on thousands of anecdotal accounts. Results of double-blind study: No benefit whatsoever.
I wonder what happens when you inject a newborn baby (over and over again) with a substance that he/she is allergic to?:
http://www.upi.com/HealthBusiness/view.php?StoryID=20060303-034259-2712r
I guess it’s no big deal.
It can’t be good. But I assume you’re suggesting allergic reactions cause autism, including high scores in the Raven IQ test. I find that a bit far fetched.
Sue: John Best Jr. has obviously passed on a rebuttal of my argument. Are you passing as well?
Joseph wrote:
“It can’t be good. But I assume you’re suggesting allergic reactions cause autism, including high scores in the Raven IQ test. I find that a bit far fetched”.
– You are reading too much into my post. I am simply getting it out there that the Mayo clinic has released a study sayng that thimerosal is one of the 10 allergens for dermatitis. Injecting this substance into newborn babies (or anyone for that matter) CANNOT be good. Since you wrote…”it can’t be good”. I guess we agree??
– Sue M.
Joseph wrote:
“BTW, chelation studies have been done, just not with autism”.
– Well, I want information as it relates to autism.
– Sue M.
Since you wrote…â€it can’t be goodâ€. I guess we agree??
Of course. That is, if someone is allergic to thimerosal, don’t inject him with thimerosal. It’s a no-brainer.
Joseph wrote:
“Of course. That is, if someone is allergic to thimerosal, don’t inject him with thimerosal. It’s a no-brainer”.
– Then I guess we agree. I would also imagine that we would agree (correct me if I am wrong) that it should be a “no-brainer” that we should NEVER inject ANYONE with thimerosal containing vaccinations, right? Seems logical to me.
– Sue M.
Sue said: it should be a “no-brainer†that we should NEVER inject ANYONE with thimerosal containing vaccinations, right? Seems logical to me.
On the surface, yes, something that has the chemical composition of thimerosal does not look like something that should be put into people. I’m glad it’s not in vaccines anymore. As to its actual safety, that’s not established yet. The Mayo clinic classifies it as a top allergenic, but it’s not clear if that’s based on actual medical data or on hype.
What all this theoretical discussion has to do with autism is still beyond me.
Why do you suppose the incidence of epilepsy has not increased in the CDDS?
Joseph wrote:
“I’m glad it’s not in vaccines anymore”.
– Wow, you are new. It IS still in vaccines, Joseph. It’s in the flu vaccine recommended for pregnant women and babies ages 6+ months. The flu vaccine is also now being recommended for children aged 2-5. It is also present in vaccines for adolescents and adults. It is also present in all those vaccines which we are shipping overseas… which may (possibly) be injuring them. The statement above from you shows that you need to research this more.
Joseph wrote:
“As to its actual safety, that’s not established yet”.
– Sick, isn’t it?
Joseph wrote:
“The Mayo clinic classifies it as a top allergenic, but it’s not clear if that’s based on actual medical data or on hype”.
It was pretty clear to me that it was based on actual medical data when at the bottom of the statement about the Mayo Clinic it states:
“The data were gleaned from contact dermatitis testing results from 3,854 patients over a five-year period between Jan. 1, 2001 and Dec. 31, 2005”.
Joseph wrote:
“What all this theoretical discussion has to do with autism is still beyond me”.
– Of course it is beyond you… no surprise there. It seems you are a newbie. Not that there’s anything wrong with that… everyone has to start somewhere.
– Sue M.
Hi Sue,
Now that I have had some consecutive hours of sleep, I will try again.
We need to know what thimerosal does at what amount. Without that knowledge we can’t say that the amount included in the vaccines is harmful.
– You are reading too much into my post. I am simply getting it out there that the Mayo clinic has released a study sayng that thimerosal is one of the 10 allergens for dermatitis. Injecting this substance into newborn babies (or anyone for that matter) CANNOT be good. Since you wrote…â€it can’t be goodâ€. I guess we agree??
By posting it here you’re clearly implying that it is linked to autism. As for allergens responsible for dermatitis, what about the other 9? Are they implicated here too? Is there a relationship between dermatitis and autism? Are you implying that?
It’s in the flu vaccine recommended for pregnant women and babies ages 6+ months. The flu vaccine is also now being recommended for children aged 2-5. It is also present in vaccines for adolescents and adults.
That’s correct. I don’t understand why young people think they need flu vaccines. Thimerosal should definitely be removed from flu vaccines as well. Certainly, given current concerns, neither pregnant women nor babies should be given a flu shot. (In general, pregnant women should be careful as to what they put in their bodies – even the effects of vitamin supplements are not completely known). Now, I’d be surprised if the flu vaccine has considerable adverse effects in adolescents or adults. It appears that double-blind placebo-controlled studies have found the flu vaccine to have no substantial adverse effects even on young children:
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/vaccination/sideeffectsinact.htm
“What all this theoretical discussion has to do with autism is still beyond meâ€.
– Of course it is beyond you… no surprise there. It seems you are a newbie. Not that there’s anything wrong with that… everyone has to start somewhere.
No, really. Explain to me what thimerosal has to do with autism, and refute the arguments which show (1) that the cognitive and neuroanatomical characteristics of autism can’t possibly be caused by thimerosal; (2) that the genetic profile of autism can’t possibly be related to thimerosal; (3) that prevalence trends of autism and other NDs can’t possibly be consistent with the thimerosal theory; (4) that many symptoms of mercury poisoning are not characteristic of autism, and many symptoms of autism are not characteristic of mercury poisoning.
In fairness, what thimerosal does might differ from one individual to the next. So even a placebo-controlled double-blind study is not sufficient to determine safety in such cases. Ritalin is a good example. You will find that it’s “safe” in large controlled studies. But this doesn’t mean that it can’t kill, say, 0.01% of those who take it. What they would need to do is find those who report adverse effects, repeat with placebo, then repeat with thimerosal – or something like that.
These theoretical considerations, again, have nothing to do with autism.
Jonathan wrote:
“We need to know what thimerosal does at what amount. Without that knowledge we can’t say that the amount included in the vaccines is harmful”.
– Wouldn’t you want to err on the side of caution here, Jonathan? You don’t oppose getting thimerosal out of vaccines now do you? I have no problem (obviously) with doing all the studies on this product… but first and foremost, it should be removed immediately. Shouldn’t it?
– Sue M.
As you know, I have no problem with the removal of thimerosal from vaccines. I also think it should have been done sooner. I also think that it should never have been used in vaccines in the first place.
However, erring on the side caution would not include stating that it causes autism. That is called, “exceeding the data”.
Also, you said on another post that Blaxill and I are in disagreement over something. Can you explain what?
Hurricane –
Not that the plural of anecdote is data, but my offspring show a negative coefficient of correlation between autism and dermatitis.
I’d be interested in anything showing a positive coefficient of correlation. Then my offspring would just be an anomoly there. (Not that they aren’t already a wonderful set of anomolies in other contexts….)
Sue,
The question you continue to dodge is this: Does thimerosal in vaccines cause autism? If you don’t think so than why are the majority of your posts, on this autism blog, campaigning for removal of thimerosal from vaccines?
If you do think thimerosal is in some way responsible for autism in children, then say so.
If your only concern is that thimerosal is an allergen nobody here would really care. It’s your constant regurgitation of McScience that attempts to link thimerosal to autism that most of us object to.
At least JB and JB-lite have the “balls” to come right out and say that autism is caused by thimerosal. It’s very hard to argue against your position when you don’t seem to have one, or you refuse to state one, and I think you know that all too well.
As long as you can avoid making any solid statements you can avoid having them shot down. Since your only real goal seems to be warning the public about the dangers of vaccines and disrupting any forum where a link between vaccines and autism is questioned, you are happy and will feel like you are serving a just cause.
We’ve all wasted enough time on you and your childish games. Until you can answer one question with a simple yes or no, I think everyone should return to ignoring you, Sue the troll.
Let’s start with this one: Does thimerosal in vaccines cause autism? I say it doesn’t, prove me wrong.
Clone wrote:
“The question you continue to dodge is this: Does thimerosal in vaccines cause autism”?
– Not only am I not dodging the question, I have answered this question on a few separate occasions (here) for you. May I suggest more Omega 3’s for your memory problems.
– Sue M.
Then you won’t mind indulging my Ω-3 deficient brain by repeating your answer (here) again. If you need more than one word you haven’t provided a direct answer.
YES OR NO?
Clone wrote (or is it McAnon):
“If you need more than one word you haven’t provided a direct answer”.
– So will you only accept a yes or no answer to this question? If so, I’ll pass.
– Sue M.
Is Sue M. a TROLL?
Yes or No?
From you Sue, yes. If it isn’t limited to a yes or no answer you will respond with a lot of words but you won’t say anything. You can’t or you won’t answer the question.
It’s easy, I’ll show you. Does thimerosal cause autism? NO!
Now you try it. How about Erik? Wade? anyone else? At least have the guts to state your position assuming you have one.
Q. “Does thimerosal cause autism?”
My answer: A resolute NO.
hollywoodjaded wrote:
“Q. “Does thimerosal cause autism?â€
My answer: A resolute NO”.
– I guess that this just shows that some are more willing to talk in absolutes about this. I am not willing to do that. I suppose that makes me gutless to you.
– Sue M.
… another derailment tactic employed …
Sue M. said: I suppose that makes me gutless to you.
That and all of the other questions you dodge.
So given that you refuse to take a stand on this issue, why are you the first to bring it up on nearly every thread?
Absolutes or not, it’s clear your life revolves around thimerosal. Sad
Come on, Sue.
Either it does (at least some of the time), or it doesn’t.
These two possibilities cover the entire space.
Either Thimerosal (at least sometimes) causes autism … or it doesn’t.
Pick one – no matter what, only one of the two can be the answer.
Pick one, and THEN you can qualify your answer all you want … but if you can’t pick one, then you don’t have a position at all; and if that’s the case, then it doesn’t make sense for you to be bringing it up the way you do.
http://www.autismmedia.org/media8.html
Watch the Geiers video as they attempted to work with the CDC’s VSD database. This interview does not help the CDC’s case one bit, and will confirm suspicions for those who may have been on the fence about all this.
Erik
wait wait wait a second. Before I look…
I’m supposed to believe anything that comes out of the mouth of someone with and MD/PhD who doesn’t know the basics of either chemistry or biology? Or are these basics being conveniently avoided for the cha-ching?
Plus, watching two apes at a keyboard bellyache about someone’s gui isn’t my idea of convincing evidence that the CDC is comprised of anything other than a population of people best described by the typical bell curve of talent and work ethic.
There’s gotta be something more to it than that. Come on, give us a teaser.
SueM: ” I guess that this just shows that some are more willing to talk in absolutes about this. I am not willing to do that.”
Up until called upon to prove just one of a whole series of absolutist statements, suddenly you’re not taking such extreme views?
Come on…. that is ridiculous. You know you can’t do it. So when called upon to do so, you back down.
Coward.
Michael wrote:
“Either Thimerosal (at least sometimes) causes autism”.
– Thank you, Michael. Apparently, you haven’t been reading this blog for all that long or have not paid too much attention to it. I will agree with this statement above. I have no issues with it so let’s repeat it… “Thimerosal (at least sometimes) causes autism”… Personally, I would have used triggered but what the hell, I’ll go with causes. I probably also would have added genetically susceptible children (instead of at least sometimes) but whatever it works as Michael has written it.
So, now, Michael… you had to audacity to clarify the statement by Clone (the nerve of you to add the at least sometimes)? You see Michael, had I done that — all hell would have broken out here. Clone would have been all over me for using more than a one word answer (trust me, he would have). Yes, Michael, it is childish but it happens all the time. So, again, thank you Michael. May you be a voice of reason to this mess.
– Sue M.
Erik said: This interview does not help the CDC’s case one bit, and will confirm suspicions for those who may have been on the fence about all this.
Are you “on the fence about all this” Erik? What’s your position on the whole mercury causes autism? You can tape it an post a link to the video if you’d like.
Um, I think you might need to read what Michael wrote again Sue.
Kev wrote:
“Um, I think you might need to read what Michael wrote again Sue”.
– Um, Kev, I read what he wrote. He wrote:
“Either Thimerosal (at least sometimes) causes autism … or it doesn’t”.
Then he wrote:
“Pick one – no matter what, only one of the two can be the answer”.
– So, I picked one, Kev, I picked… Thimerosal (at least sometimes) causes autism…
So, where did I go wrong? Spell it out, don’t tiptoe around it, I can handle it…
– Sue M.
Bartholomew wrote:
“I’m supposed to believe anything that comes out of the mouth of someone with and MD/PhD who doesn’t know the basics of either chemistry or biology? Or are these basics being conveniently avoided for the cha-ching”?
– So much for going into something with an open mind, Bart. It shows your true colors. Why don’t you just listen/watch the video… Geez!
Erik- Thank you. Un-f*cking believable. As one of the Geiers said in the video (not a direct quote): If I didn’t live the experience, I wouldn’t believe it either. So true. I can totally relate (in a much scaled down version).
– Sue M.
Hurricane – Not that the plural of anecdote is data, but my offspring show a negative coefficient of correlation between autism and dermatitis.
I have dermatitis. I don’t have autism.
Anecdotal evidence is just that. Effectively it’s meaningless.
Hi Erik,
Before you run off, a couple of points:
Have you seen the Geiers staistical methods? They are reasonable, but could be better. They have been doing better as of late with that. I don’t blame the CDC for wanting to see their statistical method in detail.
The database that was “destroyed” was destroyed because they (the Geiers) compared databases that compromised patient confidentiality. This IS a textbook error.
Finally the whole IRB thing at each Kaiser or HMO is legally required and is very just. They want access to those databases, the various HMOs are the ones ultimately responsible is the Geier’s ethically screw up. This is a just system. I am speaking as somone who has to do somethinh similar withe special education research, I have to get my institution review approval, and then get that permission for ALL the various schools I research in. It is a pain, but it is ethical.
What is “childish” here is the way a certain troll is compelled to attempt to hijack every, single thread.
Open mind, Sue? Are you serious?
The guy intimated that Kev neglects his child.
The guy posts moronic videos of people trying to sell backwards ideas, ideas that could potentially harm a young child and that have NO PROOF of efficacy. These ideas are put forward by morons with graduate degrees who don’t understand basic biochemistry. Let’s all say it together, “Testosterone sheets are a figment of someone’s financial wet dream”. It’s a pathetic distortion of reality.
To immediately toss out anything these two idiots have to say isn’t close minded – it’s called “I’ve watched one too many moron Geier videos”. Yes, I actually sat down and watched Erik’s videos. I was shocked at the blatant disregard for logic and scientific understanding. I was blown away by the arrogance. Over a month ago, Erik said he was going to ask the Geiers about my claim that testosterone doesn’t form sheets. Either he hasn’t got an answer or he got the answer he didn’t want to hear. My bet is on no answer.
Anyone who defends these idiots, defends pseudoscience and snake oil. Anyone who would place their child in the hands of tweedle dee and tweedle dumber has no leg to stand on when it comes to pointing the child neglect finger at anyone else.
_”Um, Kev,”_
Awww, Sue, you’re copying what I say – how _cute_ . I think I’ll start calling you ‘mini-me’ :o)
_”I read what he wrote. He wrote: “Either Thimerosal (at least sometimes) causes autism … or it doesn’tâ€.”_
Whereas you quoted him as saying:
_”Either Thimerosal (at least sometimes) causes autism”_
And then concocted a whole fantabulous comment around that misrepresentation.
_”So, where did I go wrong? Spell it out, don’t tiptoe around it, I can handle it…”_
Are you talking about just this thread or generally? I’m hoping it isn’t the latter because seriously? We’d be here all week.
Sue M. said:
You see Michael, had I done that—all hell would have broken out here. Clone would have been all over me for using more than a one word answer (trust me, he would have).
Another display of your psychic powers Sue? If you want to know the truth, I didn’t ask the question so that I could “jump all over you”, that’s known as baiting and I’ll leave that tactic to Master Best.
Your answer wasn’t exactly direct but at least you stated your position once and for all.
I’m sorry you feel so persecuted Sue but why should that come as a surprise to you? I’m a considerate and courteous driver, I always try to let other drivers in to traffic and that sort of thing, but try to pass a long line of cars on the left and cut in front of me without asking to make an exit and, well, I may just gesture my opinion.
That’s what happens here with you. You bring out the worst in people and not just me. It’s hard to feel too sorry for you though because I don’t think you care how many people you piss-off. You are pissed off and you want everyone to know about your tragic life.
Well guess what? There are plenty of people who have children with medical issues and disabilities far greater than yours and they manage to get through the day without blaming and attacking everyone in their paths. Some, like Kev, try to emphasize the positive, but you see that as wrong.
I know you think vaccines caused a few fairly minor health issues in your children but tell me how that grants you the right to portray autistics as damaged, poisoned, vaccine injured, etc? I doubt you care just as long as you can use the thimerosal issue to chip away at the vaccine industry.
Better go find a powder room. Your agenda is showing.
_”The guy intimated that Kev neglects his child.”_
Its cool :o)
Erik is still steamed because I asked him publicly to think about what a hormone suppresent might do to hs pre-pubescent daughter. He doesn’t like to think about that so he’s still a bit pissed off.
Bartholomew wrote:
“Open mind, Sue? Are you serious”?
– Well, yes, I am serious. Your rant will probably invoke ‘atta boys and back slaps from your buddies here and probably made you feel good but be assured that “here” is not the real world. So, certainly you can ignore the Geier’s but let’s be honest no matter what you think of the Geier’s or the rest of “us”, we’re not going away. So, I would think that it would be beneficial to you to keep listening and keep up to date on the latest happenings. We know you will Bart (your a smart guy).
It is unclear to me whether or not you actually listened to this newest video that Erik linked to… I see that you make reference to his previous ones blah, blah, blah and those seemed to turn you off… If you do decide to take a look at this new one, I trust that you will see that it has NOTHING to do with biochemistry or testosterone… it has to do with the CDC and the VSD data that they were charged to look into by government officials. Certainly this is consistent with their years of previous experience. I’m also quite certain that they would be very happy to get other less controversial people in there to look at the data. Let’s make that happen.
– Sue M.
Kev wrote:
“Are you talking about just this thread or generally? I’m hoping it isn’t the latter because seriously? We’d be here all week”.
– Nope, I was talking about this thread. Basically, your gripe was that I initially didn’t copy Mike’s original quote correctly? I apologize for the confusion (I think)…
– Sue M.
Clone wrote:
“Your answer wasn’t exactly direct but at least you stated your position once and for all”.
– I find this once and for all comment interesting, Clone. This is AT LEAST the second time that I have stated my opinion on this topic in a direct response to the exact same question asked by you… Here it is quoted from Kev’s blog entry entitled: Blogging Housekeeping and David Kirby. I wrote (in response to a question by you):
“I actually say that thimerosal can trigger autism in genetically susceptible children”.
– So, Clone can we agree that you don’t have to keep asking the same question over and over again and then claim that I am dodging the question… Again, omega 3’s help with that.
Clone wrote:
“You are pissed off and you want everyone to know about your tragic life”.
– Wow, you have it wrong here (again) but you know that. My kids are awesome and perfect (of course). They’re off at the playground right now… running around as happy as can be. Their brains are very happy that they will never again see another thimerosal containing vaccination. I try to alert everyone to this tragedy. That’s all.
– Sue M.
Sue M. said Their brains are very happy that they will never again see another thimerosal containing vaccination. I try to alert everyone to this tragedy. That’s all.
Which tragedy?
Clone wrote:
“Which tragedy”?
– Thimerosal in vaccines. Yes, it is one.
– Sue M.
Not for your children, apparently, so where is the tragedy and how were you appointed to alert everyone?
btw, your needle is stuck again. A good smack will help with that.