Whenever anyone else hears the word ‘DAN!’ with that little exclamation mark do they go ‘DAN! – DAN! – DAN – DAN!’ to the opening four bars of the theme to ‘Dragnet’? No? Ah well, just me then.
Ken Aitken is a psychologist. He’s also a DAN! Doctor. One doesn’t need to be an actual Doctor to be a DAN! Doctor apparently:
As for choosing a DAN!, it just depends on what type of treatment you are looking for. DAN!’s that are MDs or DOs are typically going to be much more into testing and genetics and lots of expensive and invasive stuff. This, of course, is a gross generalization and isn’t necessarily true of all DAN! MDs, but rather something to be cautious of. A DAN! who is a homeopath or naturopath is typically going to do things more naturally and less invasive. Again, it’s a generalization. There are chiropractors, allergists and other types of doctors that are DAN!s as well, so it is really the type of doctor and treatment that best suits your needs. Many people go with a MD or DO because they can get insurance coverage for some of the services.
Homeopaths and Naturopaths doing things ‘naturally’. Heh. Does this lack of training in medical matters prevent them from performing things like chelation (source as above)?
…which is why we went with a homeopath/naturopath…….We decided to get the mercury out because I knew that Seth had had way too much put into him and it wasn’t coming out at all (he’s a non-excretor).
Homeopaths and Naturopaths doing chelation. Cool.
I talked to one yesterday (a DAN doctor mind you) and how he got qualifications to be one is beyond me. He told me has a couple of autistic patients and knows of the chelation process. If this is all that is required to be a DAN doctor then I don’t see a distinct advantage to them either.
Is your mind boggling yet? Here’s the reply to this commenter (source as above):
I think that being on the DAN list (in the past) meant something like that the person had attended some DAN training– or something rather general like this. Someone (in some post, somewhere) who went to the recent DAN conference wrote about that there is/was some discussion afoot to try to improve on this and make the
info on doctors more useful (or more detailed….or something??)
This doesn’t sound like a recipie for disaster at all. Was Roy Kerry a DAN! Doctor? I don’t know.
I came across some priceless websites pushing the DAN! protocol. They had numerous things in common, chiefly the disclaimer – all variations on the theme of:
this is not medical advice
Which is odd because from that point on, they mostly plough into what can only be thought of as _advice_ about what _medication_ an autistic child should take. There’s a fairly representative sample of what a dutiful DAN! Doc should do on the website of Miriam Jang MD. First, the usual copout from responsibility:
At this point, I would like to point out that this is not medical advice, even though I am a Medical Doctor. Rather, this is a wish for your child or your loved one(s) to have the advantage of what took us eight years to discover. Please take this as a medical disclaimer. All suggestions here should be done at your own risk.
‘Own risk’. Right. Or actually – wrong. She means the risk of the child receiving the treatment. Thats whos health will suffer when if it all goes wrong.
Dr Jang decides to lead off with some impressive science:
In both Chinese medicine and Ayurvedic medicine, the sages believed that there were only two ways to health: one was to correct deficiencies; the other was to get rid of toxicities.
This ancient art of healing has been practiced continuously for over 5,000 years. The principles of many natural healing systems now familiar in the West, such as Homeopathy and Polarity Therapy, have their roots in Ayurveda. Ayurvedic practices restore the balance and harmony of the individual, resulting in self-healing, good health and longevity.
So, DAN! Doctors are homeopaths and naturopaths who practice er, Polarity Therapy. Polarity Therapy? What the hell?
Polarity Therapy is a comprehensive health system involving energy-based bodywork, diet, exercise and self-awareness. It works with the Human Energy Field, electromagnetic patterns expressed in mental, emotional and physical experience.
Riiiight. OK. Back to er, Doctor (?) Jang. Basically, there’s a load of stuff with no cites – such as:
An important finding is that about 85 percent of Autistic kids are high in Copper and low in Zinc. Furthermore, these kids are very low in an important protein call Metallothionein, or MT Protein.
Hmm. Searching PubMed for ‘Metallothionein autism’ reveals two results. One is an inaccessible review and one is a free PDF published in the confidence inspiringly named ‘Alternative Medecine Review’. A Google search for the same reveals the predicted circus of quackery.
Except….another one of the mercury/autism darlings, Vijendra K. Singh has a paper that states:
serum level of MT did not significantly differ between normal and autistic children. Furthermore, autistic children harboured normal levels of anti-MT, including antibodies to isoform MT-I (anti-MT-I) and MT-II (anti-MT-II), without any significant difference between normal and autistic children.
A dilema, no? (You can read more on this paper here.)
Dr Jang continues with:
I will include a list of supplements that Marky is taking. There are many protocols, with many rationales. When we write down the dosages, please take into consideration that Marky is 11 years old and weighs 75 pounds. Please adjust your dosages according to your child’s weight.
Marky is her son. But isn’t it amazing how a DAN! Doctor is assuming parents know *how* to adjust medications for weight – and is happy to trust them to do so without medical supervision or even consultation!
Towards the end of her piece she says:
Please remember that, if you introduce your child to a new supplement, it is not unusual for the child to experience some adverse effects for a short while…When this happens, it does not necessarily mean that you should discontinue the supplement, unless the adverse effects are dangerous, or persistent….If there are adverse effects, stay at this dose until the adverse effects are gone, then proceed to a slightly higher dose, etc.
So there may be adverse effects but don’t stop unless the adverse effects are dangerous, instead stay on the same dose until the adverse effects are gone. I can’t imagine any Doctor thinking this is good advice. Interestingly, the following appeared from Dr Jang as part of an email newsletter:
I would like to start with some very serious news: we do have to be careful of Vitamin A toxicity with our sweet kids. There is a child with reported Vitamin A toxicity that was so severe that the child had to be hospitalized for 12 days.
Her patient? I wonder. Maybe the practitioner (whomever s/he was) read her advice to ‘stay on the same dose until the adverse effects are gone’.
Dr Jang tells us in relation to supplements that:
We noticed a difference in Marky in less than a week.
And yet later on she says:
In addition, you may not see the beneficial effects of these supplements for a period of time.
Something of a glaring contradiction. Which is true?
Anyway, having expounded all this good advice, Dr Jang closes with:
So, be curious and be persistent. Take good care of yourselves so that you can endure this arduous journey called “Autism”!
Yes, be curious – try everything that takes your fancy. Be persistent – whats a little Vitamin A poisoning between friends? And above all take good care of _yourselves_ so that _you_ can endure this journey…..except, its not _you_ who’s undergoing all these treatments is it? Its your child.
Dr Jang is also a big clay bath fancier (clay baths cure autism? Who knew?)
“…I have put a huge number of patients on these clay baths and the levels of heavy metals – mercury, lead, arsenic, aluminum, and cadmium have come down dramatically…I have been monitoring the levels of metals using all three methods (TD DMPS, oral DMSA and clay baths)and the clay baths are way faster in the removal of metals”.
Hoooo boy! Rashid’s going to be plenty pissed with her. Better than TD DMPS? Surely not! Why not use both? Smother your child with TD DMPS and then wash that stuff off in a nice clay bath? At least your child will have a nice happy splash in a bath.
So, Ken Aitken – welcome to your new role as a Dan! Doctor. I feel sure you can uphold the strong scientific standards your colleagues demonstrate.
Left Brain Right Brain 
DanDanDanDanDanDanDanDanDan – BATMAN!
Actually, I always thought of it more as the opening beat to “Eye of the Tiger”:
DAN! ……….DAN! .DAN! .DAN! ……DAN! .DAN! DAN! ……DAN! .DAN! ..DANNNNNNN!
Oh lord…..What have I wrought…..
Don’t worry Jonathon – its merely Textile doing its thing. Stupid markup preprocessors ;o)
And this post demonstrates why I really don’t trust DAN! doctors. (Well, that and the crazy way people become DAN! doctors.)
You know what was the disturbing part for me? Chiropractors. That’s real quackery, man.
Maybe it’s just because I was watching old Monty Python, but I hear DAN, DAN, lovely DAN. There’s eggs with DAN, eggs with DAN, DAN and DAN…
Quals-watch: Kenneth Aitken, MN, Ph.D.
Aitken is a dietician, it appears to me. MN usually means Master of Nutrition; it could, however, mean Master of Nursing.
I think, given the info there, that the first is the more likely.
No medical qualification is listed: these would include the following…
MB BS
MB ChB
MB
MB BCh
MB BChir
and other permutations denoting the joint degrees of Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery.
Clay Aiken is a DAN! doctor?
http://www.clayaiken.com/
No, American Idol has a rigorous selection process.
Me, whenever I hear Jang I think of the song from the mash-up CD Kathleen posted.
Purple Haze, Jang a lang a lang a….
David – the GMC has a handy web search where you can check out if a doctor is registered with them (you have to be to practice medicine in the UK):
http://webcache.gmc-uk.org/ods/home.do
It also tells you when and where they qualified, and whether they’re on the specialist register.
If you work with doctors you can look them up there too; given the date of qualification you can see (roughly) if they’re lying about their age 🙂
It does say “The absence of a record does not necessarily mean the doctor is not registered”, but all the ‘Aitken, K’s are female.
Amazing.
btw, re this:
Some ayurvedic medicines contain heavy metals – including mercury.
Skeptico: that is priceless. Truly a ‘don’t know whether to laugh or cry’ moment.
Skeptico beat me to it….
http://tinyurl.com/88ze9
This is an article out of the UK that says Chinese and Ayurvedic “medicine” can contain lead and mercury (deliberately put there!)
So nice to see Dr. Jang giving her woo thumbs up to Chinese traditional and Ayurvedic medicine.
Dr. McCandless said something about cleaning up the DAN! list at a DAN! conference last year. Big talk coming from Dr. McCandless who says that methyl mercury isn’t toxic, and what was it, something about oxidizing mercury makes it into methyl mercury or some weirdness she was blathering.
The woman is a sex therapist, she hasn’t cured her own grandchild but was saying that maybe if every 3 days or every 2 days for methyl B12 injections weren’t doing it for the uncured child, then every day should be tried.
She’s big on parents pushing Naltrexone even when their kids are sick…give them more, give them more.
The whole batch of them of dangerous, in my opinion.
DAAAAN.. DAN!
DAAAAN.. DAN!
DAN! DAN! .. DAN! DAN! .. DAN! DAN! .. DAN! DAN!
Sing it like the theme from JAWS.
I’m waiting for one of the Toxic Parents to turn up and do the DAN! Protocol Apologetics Dance and “explain” how we’re all just lacking in faith… Can I get an A-DAN!
Big news out of UCD….
Take some thimerosal and put in in a petri dish with some mouse immune cells and these dedritic cells get messed up.
http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2006/8881/abstract.html
So what happens to these mice when you put the same relative amount into them when they are alive? Are there have any deliterious effects?
I doubt it.
What other chemicals do this very thing to dendritic cells? What other forms of mercury do this?
So what kids of brain disorders could be caused by damage to dendritic cells? Epilepsy? Cerebral Palsy? Mental Retardation? Schizophrenia? Depression? Mania? Hearing problems? Vision problems? Pain problems? Dyslexia? Hyperlexia?
Could chelation undo the damage, or would it make the damage worse? How ’bout that hyperbaric oxygen? How ’bout some stem cells? How ’bout some magnetic clay baths?
Next… Dan Olmsted weighs in on this and how it impacts the rate of autism… which is simultaneously dropping like a rock and continuing to climb…both… in California… depending on how the spinner wants to spin it.
Pessah recently pointed out that there was mercury in corn syrup. I suspect that maternal consumption of soda pop (sweetened usually with corn syrup) is what causes autism. There’s benzene (horrific stuff) in soda pop, too, you know. http://www.newsinferno.com/archives/909 That’s what they say.
Ms. Clark,
This sounds very Dr. Deth-like – at least on the surface. (you know, convulted in vitro tests)
Ms. Clark,
“So what happens to these mice when you put the same relative amount into them when they are alive? Are there have any deliterious effects?”
“I doubt it.”
Whew, that’s great news. For a minute there, I was actually worried that thimerosal could be dangerous. I’m so relieved now to hear that you officially “doubt it.” Those dummies over at UC Davis & NIEHS really should have consulted with you first before wasting their time on this.
Anonimouse,
“This sounds very Dr. Deth-like – at least on the surface. (you know, convulted in vitro tests)”
What does that statement even mean? You guys complain and complain and complain about the lack of scientific studies. So now we have one that indicates thimerosal could cause immune disorders – and I’d like to take this opportunity to point out that DAN doctors have been calling autism, at least the autism that they are treating in today’s generation, an immune disorder – and already you attack it.
I don’t get it. Do you own stock in thimerosal? Thimerosal is toxic and should never have been in vaccines or any medicine for that matter. I made this point in Orac’s blog after he hammered RFK Jr for pointing out how the CDC has failed to follow their own advice when it comes to removing thimerosal from vaccines. This mouse study does not even attempt to prove thimerosal causes autism. So there is really no need to be so defensive.
Regarding DAN doctors, I haven’t read the entire blog entry but I have no problem stating that DAN needs to do a much better job of getting organized and needs to have a more rigorous set of requirements before allowing someone to call themselves a DAN doctor. Generation Rescue helps out somewhat in this area by providing newbie parents with parent contacts who are very familiar with the DAN protocol and would be in a good position to help them find the best DAN docs.
_”What does that statement even mean? You guys complain and complain and complain about the lack of scientific studies. So now we have one that indicates thimerosal could cause immune disorders – and I’d like to take this opportunity to point out that DAN doctors have been calling autism, at least the autism that they are treating in today’s generation, an immune disorder – and already you attack it.”_
So because a DAN! Doctor calls something an immune disorder and because a _newspaper report_ about this study (which won’t be available until July) says that:
_”that dendritic cells show unprecedented sensitivity to thimerosal, resulting in fundamental changes in the immune system’s ability to respond to external factors.”_
We are to assume….what? DAN! Doctors clearly don’t know their arse from their elbow. One of them appears to have accidently poisoned an autistic child. You’ll forgive me for not putting a great deal of trust in their opinion.
This newspaper report by the way goes on to say:
_”Our findings do not directly implicate thimerosal as a single causative agent for triggering neurodevelopmental disorders such as autism,”_
So…thiomersal might be dangerous. Guess thats why its not in large scale vaccines anymore in the US and not in any vaccines at all in the UK. The only thing that matters in relation to autism is: does thiomersal cause autism? The answer is still no.
_”I don’t get it. Do you own stock in thimerosal?”_
Well we’d be doing really badly seeing as there’s hardly any around these days. But if we want to level banalities at each other – do you own stock in whatever will have to replace thiomersal?
_”This mouse study does not even attempt to prove thimerosal causes autism. So there is really no need to be so defensive.”_
Well I’m glad you can see that. Believe me, you’re going to find that a lot of people are going to whip themselves into a frenzy about this.
_”Generation Rescue helps out somewhat in this area by providing newbie parents with parent contacts who are very familiar with the DAN protocol and would be in a good position to help them find the best DAN docs.”_
Yeah, they’re saints.
KJ: and I’d like to take this opportunity to point out that DAN doctors have been calling autism, at least the autism that they are treating in today’s generation, an immune disorder
Uhh, yeah, after more and more research was published to suggest immune abnormalities in some children. DAN! jumped right on board, they did. Like everything else DAN! they are way ahead of themselves though since the mainstream research isn’t at the point where we can call autism an immune disorder. Just for the record, how many of the immune aspects of autism do you think were uncovered by DAN! doctors and researchers?
Here’s another point to ponder: You don’t get hyper-production of proinflammatory cytokines in response to antigens by killing off antigen presenting cells with thimerosal. If anything that would tend to suppress an overactive immune response.
You can’t improve your game by Killing the other Golfers
killerjabs,
You’re right. The study doesn’t show that thimerosal has anything to do with autism. However, most of your anti-thimerosal brethren are already adding it to the peer-revewed (and perhaps valid) but mostly tangential research that provides the basis for a link. Right up there with the mouse study and the primate study.
And I guess when push comes to shove, accuse someone of having stock in thimerosal. Nice. Will you disclose any financial interests or litigation against pharmaceutical companies you are currently a party to? You know, like several on the SafeMinds board or a fair chunk of the Rescue Angels?
Question (I’m guessing Kev will know where to find an answer, or whom to ask to find it) – was thimerisol used in vaccinations in the UK at any time? If so, when was that practice stopped?
Hi Julia,
Yes thiomersal was used in the DTP jab over here but was withdrawn in 2004.
How long was that in effect? Decades?
Thiomersal use? I can’t find anything quotable but yes, I think so.
“We are to assume….what? DAN! Doctors clearly don’t know their arse from their elbow. One of them appears to have accidently poisoned an autistic child. You’ll forgive me for not putting a great deal of trust in their opinion.”
Kev, Likewise, you’ll have to forgive me for not putting a great deal of trust in your opinion. I happen to see a DAN doctor and the progress my son has made under his care has been dramatic, although I have no desire to argue whether or not it is merely a coincedance so please don’t go there. So my opinion is that at least some DAN doctors clearly do know their arse from their elbow.
“So…thiomersal might be dangerous. Guess thats why its not in large scale vaccines anymore in the US and not in any vaccines at all in the UK.”
Kev, thimerosal is in the flu vaccine in the US which is now recommended for pregnant women and 6 month olds. Not sure what you mean by “large scale vaccines” but we have clearly taken a step back in the US with regards to thimerosal exposure.
“The only thing that matters in relation to autism is: does thiomersal cause autism? The answer is still no.”
Really? We now know that definitively? Based on what? Flawed epidemiology? Isn’t it time you acknowledged the flaws in those studies? The US VSD study was called neutral by the lead author, yet it was taken as evidence against a link by the IOM. The first HMO in that study had a significant association. The second, much smaller HMO, did not have an association. The Danish studies are all invalid. Same with the Swedish studies. The UK study has not been properly critiqued by Safe Minds but even if I concede that one we’re not left with enough evidence for anyone to claim “the answer is still no.” I believe the correct answer is that we need more studies – and we need them fast.
“Well I’m glad you can see that. Believe me, you’re going to find that a lot of people are going to whip themselves into a frenzy about this.”
Answer me this. Are you that different than the people you refer to in this statement? You’re convinced there is no link based on flawed studies. Personally, I was a bit frenzied about this study myself. Not because I see it as absolute proof of a link. But because I think, why does it take so damn long to do these studies. And they’re clearly only in the beginning stages. Clearly I’m biased. I have a son that needs help. These concerns over thimerosal were raised 7 years ago. These studies should have been done long ago. If our children are suffering from immune disorders I want to know about it yesterday so that mainstream medicine can start contributing in the search for a cure.
_”although I have no desire to argue whether or not it is merely a coincedance so please don’t go there.”_
If you don’t want to discuss it then don’t bring it up. The possibility exists that it _is_ coincedntal. That you don’t want to think about that is in no way a surprise.
_”Kev, thimerosal is in the flu vaccine in the US which is now recommended for pregnant women and 6 month olds. Not sure what you mean by “large scale vaccines†but we have clearly taken a step back in the US with regards to thimerosal exposure.”_
So flu vaccines now versus a large scale program then. There is significantly less thiomersal around. There is no evidence to suggest a significant downturn in autism to accompny it.
How much mercury is in a flu jab? We could compare that to the mercury burden kids in the US used to get easily.
_”Really? We now know that definitively? Based on what?…I believe the correct answer is that we need more studies – and we need them fast.”_
The entire premise rests on there being an epidemic of autism. There is none.
I’ll discuss the rest of your comment later, right now I have to be somewhere.
“If you don’t want to discuss it then don’t bring it up. The possibility exists that it is coincedntal. That you don’t want to think about that is in no way a surprise.”
I only brought it up to make a point regarding opinions of DAN doctors. There is no point in arguing it since it can’t be proven one way or the other.
“So flu vaccines now versus a large scale program then. There is significantly less thiomersal around. There is no evidence to suggest a significant downturn in autism to accompny it.”
Where do you suggest one look to detect a reduction in autism?
“How much mercury is in a flu jab?”
25 mcg
“The entire premise rests on there being an epidemic of autism. There is none.”
Based on what? I’ve been discussing these issues with Jonathan Semetko over at http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/03/the_geiers_go_dumpsterdiving_y_1.php
Jonathan points to a study done by Fombonne. Is that the one you’re referring to as well? And what about the studies that do support an epidemic?
_Ms. Clark,
“So what happens to these mice when you put the same relative amount into them when they are alive? Are there have any deliterious effects?â€
“I doubt it.â€
Whew, that’s great news. For a minute there, I was actually worried that thimerosal could be dangerous. I’m so relieved now to hear that you officially “doubt it.†Those dummies over at UC Davis & NIEHS really should have consulted with you first before wasting their time on this._
You really are quite the “expert” aren’t you?
Tell us all what happened to the mice in Dr. Hornig’s experiment. I want to hear you explain it. Mr. Killejabs.
It was Dr. Hornig’s abusive and unethical experimentation on mice that made me think that even if you dose baby mice with far greater amounts of thimerosal, proportionately, than babies EVER got in their vaccines here, that the mice turn out NORMAL!
If you give it to super sensitve autoimmune prone mice THEY END UP WITH NOTHING VAGUELY LIKE AUTISM.
So there you go, that’s where my “doubt” comes from.
You are condemning children to be harmed by DAN! doctors every time you present DAN! doctors as a good bunch.
Dr. Jang nearly killed a boy from Nevada. A doctor at the MIND institute is writing it all up as a case study. The doctor told me to my face that the family was staring at the icey prospoect of putting their child in line for a liver transplant, specifically because of the stinking malpractice of Dr. Jang!
The only reas on that the killerDAN! doc Kerry wasn’t a DAN! doc officially is that he didn’t put his name on the list. If he had bothered to write his name on the list at a DAN! conference he’d have been one, too. He was fully qualified in quackery to be a DAN! doc. Did you know that there used to be a DAN! doc who only had a high-school diploma and who the other DAN! docs knew about and covered up for her? Oh, yeah! You can read about it on the ambd group.
Just like you can read about DAN! doc Bradstreet and his recommendations of exorcism for autism and his little bait and switch routine with the $5 version of secretin that he charged $150 for under the expensive brand name.
A DAN! doc psychiatrist with no hospital privileges might have killed a child in Florida when the child had a horrific reaction to IVIG. The child ended up in Miami children’s hospital for about a week as a result. He rode from the motel to the hosptal in an ambulence.
IVIG impacts those same dendritic cells that thimerosal does, by the way. If they are giving IVIG to aggravate or knock out the dendritic cells then they can do the same thing with thimerosal.
DAN! “docs” are crooks! I hope you got a “good” one if there is one, because a bad one will kill your child. I hope your child isn’t the next one to be killed by autism “biomed.”
Ms. Clark,
You don’t need to hear me explain Mady Hornig’s mouse study. You can hear it directy from her at this link (just select her from the choice of video’s) http://www.autismmedia.org/media14.html
Sounds to me like she is taking a conservative view when it comes to her study and calling for more research.
“You are condemning children to be harmed by DAN! doctors every time you present DAN! doctors as a good bunch.”
Spare me the drama please. Do I need to count deaths caused by non-DAN doctors?
About those mercury dressed dendritic cells. Has anybody posted this to the Science blog yet? I’d like BC’s opinion. My biochemistry is so rusty it’s corroded but reading the methodology was nice. I think I recognised the buffer solution:)
Seriously, these sorts of studies are very prone to artefact, which is why I’d like BCs take on it. Though fluorimetry is amazingly sensitive and they’ve got such great monoclonal antibodies and things these days.
The other thing that occurred to me is that the disrupted signalling system involved ATP Ca2+ right? BC can correct me on this but aren’t cardiac muscles also dependent on ATP Ca2+ signalling. Are autistic kids especially prone to cardiac arrhythmias?
Hi Alyric
I have posted the link to this study in Kev´s forum. I am still reading it. I would be glad to comment it with you during the weekend. I have not the background in Biochemistry that Bart has, but I study/have studied Biochemistry a lot 🙂
Best regards
MarÃa Luján
There are other studies that illustrate the dangers of thimerosal. You may have seen this already but here is one entitled:
Thimerosal Induces Programmed
Cell Death of Neuronal Cells via
Changes in the Mitochondrial
Environment
Click to access brown.pdf
So Killerjabs doesn’t understand the Hornig study that I cite to show that thimerosal at the doses Goth et al used doesn’t hurt mice. There’s no reason to think that if Goth et al had injected that very same thimerosal into the mice that they would have been negatively affected.
No wonder Killerjabs couldn’t understand why I wrote, that I doubt there would be any deliterious affects.
I have listened to Hornig on “FAIR” media’s site. The mercury mom (with the deliberately hidden gifted autistic child) has below ZERO credibility. She has lied through her teeth about her mice studies in the most egregious and obvious ways. Not to mention the way she appears to have set up her mice to harm each other. (PETA where are you?) Hornig’s little “nothing up my sleeve, PRESTO!” tricks are obvious. Obvious is you have a little knowledge of science, time to look at what she actually did and a brain slightly more capable than Dierdre Imus’, for example. I fully expect this will catch up with Hornig and damage if not demolish her career if it hasn’t already.
“FAIR “autism media…. oooooh.
I’ll spare you the dramatics, I hope your child is spared an untimely death. Too late for Abubakar.
Oh, look someone else having a chelation nightmare… what a surprise, and a well respected but unnamed DAN! doc in charge of the DAMage! And a regular pediatrician comes to the rescue. Here’s a kid who may suffer long term health consequences…. Why not??? Hey, it’s all about the parents and their right to experiment on their autistic kids… even kill them if that’s what it comes to, so long as a DAN! doc is at the helm and no one rocks the boat.
Will DAN! do an interview video of parents and their nightmare DAN! stories? (silly question)
Message 168537
Subject: our chelation nightmare
I know some of you have had good results with chelation so I am sorry to have to give you this information. However, I think it is imperative that the group know about our recent experience as the onsequences of chelation in our case were very serious.
We began chelating our 4 yo mid Feb. w/TD-DMSA. We were doing 3 day on, 11 days off. We had done months of nutritional intervention in preparation. He had months of good minerals before chelation and we continued the minerals on the off days. We were working with one of the most well respected DAN doctors out there.
About a week after the first round, we noticed some mood swings w/alternate giggling and crying. But we knew this could happen and weren’t too concerned. We went ahead with the second round 14 days after we had started the first round.
He started crying more and became increasingly anxious. About 6 days after we had started the second round, all hell broke loose. He began screaming and chanting nearly every second he was awake. He seemed absolutely terrified. He wanted to be held but could not sit still.
He was climbing all over us. He bit himself so many times he now has a bruise on his arm that covers the top of his arm and reaches from his wrist nearly up to his elbow. We weren’t able to stop him even though he was never alone. He bit us too and drew blood. He slept little and ate little.
This went on for an entire week. I have never been so afraid in my life.
Finally, after this had gone on for several days, we took him to a very well respected pediatric neurologist. Her theory was that the DMSA had chelated the lithium out of his body and sent him into an episode of mania.
She prescribed a low dose of lithium and it worked. He has continued to improve over the last few days since we started the medication. As glad as I am that he’s better, having a 4yo on lithium is not a situation I’d wish on anyone.
If this happened to us, I have to assume it’s possible it could
happen to someone else. I don’t know if there’s any way to predict which children could respond this way. Before we chelated, our DAN doctor did a comprehensive blood test on our son and she says his lithium levels were on the high side of normal.
BTW, I did check w/the pharmacist who compounded the DMSA. The dosage was correct for my son’s body weight.
I thought you guys should know about this.
Carla
Alyric, BC says he’s been swamped lately… he should come up for air soon.
Just a quick note about PETA – their goal is to have no pets whatsoever, and they actually “rescue” animals and then euthanize them rather than rehome them. A new animal rights organization is definitely needed.
I can’t find the link about it right now.
Ms Clark,
Are you serious? If I told you my son made tremendous improvements as a direct result of chelation what would you say? I actually know the answer to that question since I’ve seen what you have said to others. First of all, you don’t believe transdermal chelation actually does anything. Second of all, you think every claim of improvement is just something that would have happened naturally, without the chelation.
So now you bring forward a rare occurence of a reported adverse effect and you have no problem believing that the transdermal chelator actually chelates and that the observed response post chelation is a direct result of the chelator. And of course you absolutely buy into the story of the “regular” pediatrician, aka the “hero.”
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t selectively choose which parents of chelating kids you will believe based on the story serving your purpose. And the sad part is that you’re so wrapped up with hating DAN and parents who want to treat their autistic kids with biomedical intervention that you probably don’t even see the obvious bias in your words.
Hi Killer
The problem with that article is the level of thimerosal used – 1uM at the lowest, which is approximately 50 times the highest recorded blood concentration of mercury – 20nM. Of course my arithmetic could be wrong – I used to teach Maths ergo….
Click to access LANCET.pdf
Thanks Maria and Camille
Will wait for BC’s appearance wearing Biochem guru hat:)
Am I serious?
I’m showing you what the child went through in the words of his mother. And you don’t care at all how that child suffered do you?
I have only speculated that given all the evidence stated about TD DMPS that it does not get through the skin to measurable levels. I think Buttar knew that all along which is why he has never done the study that he promised, make that studies that he promised.
He moved on the IV chelation, haven’t you heard?
This kid’s mom reports that she used TD DMSA, totally different chemical. I have never heard anyone say if it changed their kid’s urine smell. If it doesn’t change the smell it’s not getting past the skin. It’s quite simple really.
I doubt that this kids problems were caused by the DMSA unless there were some other freaky incredients or he was licking it off of himself… or unless DMSA is better at getting through the skin as DMSO is.
The point is look how many days the mom allowed this to go on, no doubt thinking it was a “healing crisis”.
What would you have done Killer? Let the kid sufferl ike that without trying to see if someone could help you for day after day after day?
What do you bet the DAN! doc said, “Stay the course, darling, don’t wimp out now.” We have no idea what else this kid could have been getting in the way of non-standard treatments, either.
I have no idea if this kid was manic or in pain or what. I’m observing the extreme abuse at the hands of a supposedly highly regarded DAN! doc. I’m observing the effect of DAN! treatments on the actions of misled parents.
I keep waiting to hear of the next death by DAN!
When it happens on EoHarm and Autism Mercury will say,” oh, well, there goes another little soldier in the battle against big pharma…” But it will all wash out equal because the Rescue Angels will all light a candle for that little soldier. And the DAN! docs will smile, get in their fancy new cars and drive their big deposits to the bank.
Hi Jannalou,
Yeah, I know PETA is not ethical by most people’s standards, it’s just that they can raise such a stink and a big stink might be what is needed to expose Hornig’s shenanigans.
Ms. Clark,
Instead of contacting PETA (type PETAkillsanimals in to get the website) because PETA opposes even humane use of animals, contact the animal use committee at her institution and raise a stink there. PETA would rather see endangered animals die that be rescued into zoos. PETA runs a lot like Generation Rescue-politics are more important than the victims.
Camille,
“And you don’t care at all how that child suffered do you?”
Of course I care about that child. Where is your concern when autistic children display those characteristics without any DAN intervention? Why don’t you read the VAERS database and learn about the children who suffered or died due to adverse effects of vaccines?
“He moved on the IV chelation, haven’t you heard?”
Yes, in fact I have heard and he is not the only DAN doc doing it. Why not report on the many positive stories being told by parents about their kids from this therapy? Oh that’s right, it doesn’t fit into your agenda.
“What would you have done Killer? Let the kid sufferl ike that without trying to see if someone could help you for day after day after day?”
If I notice an adverse reaction in my son after trying a new treatment I either stop it or reduce the dosage. I have never had a reaction in my son like the one described.
“What do you bet the DAN! doc said, “Stay the course, darling, don’t wimp out now.†We have no idea what else this kid could have been getting in the way of non-standard treatments, either.”
I can pretty much guarantee a DAN doc wouldn’t be as obnoxious as you and use those words. Most DAN docs use a conservative approach and would stop the therapy as soon as any dangerous reaction occured. If something like diarrhea happens, that is a different story and “stay the course” might indeed be the advice. Listen, just like with pediatrician’s, some are better than others.
“I have no idea if this kid was manic or in pain or what. I’m observing the extreme abuse at the hands of a supposedly highly regarded DAN! doc. I’m observing the effect of DAN! treatments on the actions of misled parents.”
There you go again. I have no problem with you believing those adverse reactions were due to the DAN treatment. But then you also need to believe the position reactions.
“I keep waiting to hear of the next death by DAN!”
You’re like a vulture. I can imagine how upset you must have been when the CDC determined that the only child who died during a DAN treatment was accidental.
_”About 6 days after we had started the second round, all hell broke loose. He began screaming and chanting nearly every second he was awake. He seemed absolutely terrified. He wanted to be held but could not sit still. He was climbing all over us. He bit himself so many times he now has a bruise on his arm that covers the top of his arm and reaches from his wrist nearly up to his elbow. We weren’t able to stop him even though he was never alone. He bit us too and drew blood. He slept little and ate little.”_
_”Where is your concern when autistic children display those characteristics without any DAN intervention?”_
Where is this documented? Why do you ascribe it to autism? None of these behaviours appear on the diagnostic criteria for autism so why do you link them? They appeared in this case due to chelation.
_”Why don’t you read the VAERS database and learn about the children who suffered or died due to adverse effects of vaccines?”_
How do you know those reports weren’t simply made up? And even if they weren’t would do they have to do with autism? Is your interest in this matter due to autism or due to discrediting vaccines *killerjabs* ?
_”Yes, in fact I have heard and he is not the only DAN doc doing it. Why not report on the many positive stories being told by parents about their kids from this therapy? Oh that’s right, it doesn’t fit into your agenda.”_
I thought you didn’t want to discuss this? Earlier you said:
_”although I have no desire to argue whether or not it is merely a coincedance so please don’t go there.”_
Now, we can either discuss it and the liklehood improvement is down to progression or we can adhere to your earlier wishes and not discuss it. You decide.
_”I can pretty much guarantee a DAN doc wouldn’t be as obnoxious as you and use those words. Most DAN docs use a conservative approach and would stop the therapy as soon as any dangerous reaction occured.”_
I guess you were right when you stated you hand’t read this entry. I mention how ‘Dr’ Jang, DAN! Doc in good standing recommends:
_”If there are adverse effects, stay at this dose until the adverse effects are gone, then proceed to a slightly higher dose, etc.”_
And how an autistic child was hospitalised for 12 days after being Vitamin A poisoned. That DAN! must’ve taken Jang’s advice too.
_”I can imagine how upset you must have been when the CDC determined that the only child who died during a DAN treatment was accidental.”_
She was wrong. If Tariq hadn’t been recieving an innapropriate treatment for autism then he would still be alive. There’s also the fact that autistic peoples brains are chemically different than non-autiistics. Chelation is a process that affects the chemical makeup of the body. As there have been *no* safety trials for chelation as a treatment for autism how do you or Dr Brown know what the effects might be?
“Where is this documented? Why do ascribe it to autism? None of these behaviours appear on the diagnostic criteria for autism so why do you link them? They appeared in this case due to chelation.”
Self-injurious and aggressive behavior are absolutely present in some autistics. My son used to bang his head and his therapists helped me to pad his crib so that we had a safe place to keep him when this behavior occured.
http://www.healthieryou.com/autism.html
Autism varies a great deal in severity. The most severe cases are marked by extremely repetitive, unusual, self-injurious, and aggressive behavior.
http://www.autismwebsite.com/ari/newsletter/sib.htm
Nothing is more difficult for the parents of autistic children to tolerate than self-injurious and assaultive behavior (SIB/A). SIB/A behaviors are unpleasant to observe, to think about, or to discuss, but they do exist, and must be dealt with. Some autistic children hit their heads against walls or floors so hard that they have fractured their skulls, detached their retinas, or caused deafness. Others hit themselves with their fists or their knees so hard that they have broken noses, deformed ears, and even blinded themselves. Some children bite themselves and others, and hit other children and their parents with such violence they have broken bones.
Just because that characteristic is not included in DSM IV doesn’t mean it doesn’t occur. I can think of some other common characteristics that aren’t listed in DSM IV.
“How do you know those reports weren’t simply made up? And even if they weren’t would do they have to do with autism? Is your interest in this matter due to autism or due to discrediting vaccines killerjabs ?”
I can’t vouch for the validity of every claim in the VAERS db but your argument is difficult to prove for the entries that preceeded the vaccine/autism controversy. I only brought it up b/c Ms. Clark wanted to discuss adverse effects. My interest is in autism. But anyone who associates autism with vaccines is viewed as an enemy to the vaccine program. That’s probably why the AAP fights viciously against language in the Combatting Autism bill that would require studying the effects of vaccines and thimerosal on autism.
“I thought you didn’t want to discuss this? Earlier you said:”
although I have no desire to argue whether or not it is merely a coincedance so please don’t go there.
“Now, we can either discuss it and the liklehood improvement is down to progression or we can adhere to your earlier wishes and not discuss it. You decide.”
Hmmm. Decisions. Decisions. I did not want to discuss my personal situation because it is pointless. My family and therapists are convinced my son has made tremendous improvements due to biomedical interventions. But I know I will never convince you and others here of that so I’d prefer not to engage in a futile argument. That being said, I don’t see how you and Ms. Clark can ignore parents when they speak of positives from biomedical interventions while simultaneously believing those same parents when they report a regression from the same interventions.
“I guess you were right when you stated you hand’t read this entry. I mention how ‘Dr’ Jang, DAN! Doc in good standing recommends:”
I never said EVERY DAN doc is conservative. And your quote may be taken out of context. He is referring to a new supplement. I would never refer to chelation or vitamin A therapy as a new supplement. And there are degrees of adverse effects. I really can’t imagine any DAN doc telling a parent to ignore the behaviors described in the post Ms. Clark so kindly posted here for all to see. The parent does not indicate that she ever called the DAN doc to let him know what was happening.
“She was wrong. If Tariq hadn’t been an innapropriate treatment for autism then he would still be alive.”
You can state chelation is inappropriate for autism but that’s your opinion only. There are no studies of it and in the absence of scientific studies people are relying on anecdotal evidence. When administered correctly, it is extremely safe. There are many drugs used “off label.”
“There’s also the fact that autistic peoples brains are chemically different than non-autiistics.”
That’s true. What we don’t know is what caused the brain to be different. Hopefully, that will be determined soon.
“Chelation is a process that affects the chemical makeup of the body. As there have been no safety trials for chelation as a treatment for autism how do you or Dr Brown know what the effects might be?”
Personally, I would never allow my son to be among the first to try something like chelation. At this point, it has been used by thousands of autistic children. The DAN doctor we see has treated hundreds of children and is extremely dliligent in checking his patients for safety during chelation. Besides, if it wasn’t safe I’m quite confident that Ms. Clark would already have data on it given her advanced skill in snooping.
I wonder how you all feel about the mind altering ADHD drugs used by millions of children. Surely that affects the chemical makeup of the body. There are numerous claims of adverse effects from those drugs – and as far as I know they’re not being made by DAN doctors and those evil mercury parents so you might be more apt to believe them.
Somebody do somethign about that idiot JBJr:
Bottom of page. He’s actually making me feel fucking *ill* now…. he has an unhealthy interest in my genitals.
“he has an unhealthy interest in my genitals.”
Bollocks, That’s just his way of being friendly David.
If something like diarrhea happens, that is a different story and “stay the course†might indeed be the advice.
You’re aware, of course, that diarrhea is (1) incredibly uncomfortable and (2) the cause of dehydration and can actually result in death if not dealt with properly?
I get diarrhea at least once a month (first day of my monthly bleed), and lately I’ve had loose stool again (I’m attributing that to my fasting during Lent and not too concerned). It’s not fun. Period. In fact, I was overjoyed when I learned that avoiding milk (which I hate with a passion) would significantly lessen the amount of diarrhea and loose stool that I had to deal with.
Nothing is more difficult for the parents of autistic children to tolerate than self-injurious and assaultive behavior (SIB/A). SIB/A behaviors are unpleasant to observe, to think about, or to discuss, but they do exist, and must be dealt with. Some autistic children hit their heads against walls or floors so hard that they have fractured their skulls, detached their retinas, or caused deafness. Others hit themselves with their fists or their knees so hard that they have broken noses, deformed ears, and even blinded themselves. Some children bite themselves and others, and hit other children and their parents with such violence they have broken bones.
Just because that characteristic is not included in DSM IV doesn’t mean it doesn’t occur. I can think of some other common characteristics that aren’t listed in DSM IV.
Except that there’s almost always a good reason for such behaviour. It’s not something you can just blame on autism. I worked for two years with a boy who bit the back of his hand when he was excited (whether good or bad). He bit me when I was silly enough to impinge on his space when he was upset (which I don’t blame him for, oddly enough, even though the bruise did last for a solid month). I’ve been kicked, head-butted, bitten, hit with a closed fist (the 5yo I babysit for likes to pound my back when he’s mad at me), slapped (same kid also likes to slap my leg if he’s not behind me and I’m doing something he doesn’t like), etc. None of it is specifically due to autism. It’s usually something I can write off to the fact that the child is unable to communicate effectively and he’s upset, which makes it even harder to express himself. If he had an effective method for communicating, I wouldn’t get hurt. (Well, that and if I’d stay out of the way, but sometimes you have to “get in there” if you’re going to be able to make things better.)
I wonder how you all feel about the mind altering ADHD drugs used by millions of children. Surely that affects the chemical makeup of the body. There are numerous claims of adverse effects from those drugs – and as far as I know they’re not being made by DAN doctors and those evil mercury parents so you might be more apt to believe them.
ADHD medications are, for the most part, safe. Amphetamines (Ritalin, Concerta, Dexedrine, Adderall, etc.) are not retained in the body. They take effect almost immediately and are expelled from the body within 24 hours (depending on how long-acting the pill in question is). Strattera (the medication I am on) and Effexor are SNRI’s, closely related to anti-depressants. They have not been in use as long as the amphetamines have, but they are more effective for those who, like me, have ADHD-Inattentive.
I find it interesting that people keep bringing this up, because I was recently directed to this article about ADHD meds. In the USA, 3.3 million children use ADHD meds, as compared to 1.7 million adults. And the number of children taking these medications is falling, while the number of adults is rising. The FDA is examining the data this week and will likely have a decision regarding the use of these medications soon.
I look forwards to this, but at the same time I hope that they don’t stop giving these meds to the people who really need them.
c3g: “Bollocks, That’s just his way of being friendly David.”
Oh fuck…. and he calls *me* a fucking wacko?!
Ewwww….. I’d hate to see what it’s like what he fucking hates someone. The man’s a fucking idiot.
He sends me anything of *his* fucking cock and bag, it’s police involvement time. I’ve put up with some weird shit from him in his mails to me…. this is stalking.
Kiiller wrote:
“Some autistic children hit their heads against walls or floors so hard that they have fractured their skulls, detached their retinas, or caused deafness. Others hit themselves with their fists or their knees so hard that they have broken noses, deformed ears, and even blinded themselves. Some children bite themselves and others, and hit other children and their parents with such violence they have broken bones.”
I have to ask if your child has ever done any of this because ever since John (he’s the absolute best) Jr started talking about smearing faeces – you know – autistics like to paint the walls with this stuff, i’ve had, i think, good reason to pause and consider the veracity of these statements – tear jerkers every one.
I’m not talking about head banging per se but head banging leading to injury by the way – there’s a difference.
These statements are ubiquitous but given the capacity of the socially wired for group think and competitive group think at that, I think it would be reasonable to stop accepting these statements at face value and start asking for real data.
You see, if Johnny’s little ray of cloudy sunshine had ever done faeces smearing beyond the age when kids do ordinarily do that sort of thing, we’d have known about it months ago. Second, and much more importantly, when you hear this particular anecdote, try reconciling the act with an autistic’s known aversion to sensory issues like slime and strong smells. i think it must be the sensory equivalent to sand in a tomato sandwich. it just doesn’t add up.