DAN! Protocol For Dummies

20 Mar

Whenever anyone else hears the word ‘DAN!’ with that little exclamation mark do they go ‘DAN! – DAN! – DAN – DAN!’ to the opening four bars of the theme to ‘Dragnet’? No? Ah well, just me then.

Ken Aitken is a psychologist. He’s also a DAN! Doctor. One doesn’t need to be an actual Doctor to be a DAN! Doctor apparently:

As for choosing a DAN!, it just depends on what type of treatment you are looking for. DAN!’s that are MDs or DOs are typically going to be much more into testing and genetics and lots of expensive and invasive stuff. This, of course, is a gross generalization and isn’t necessarily true of all DAN! MDs, but rather something to be cautious of. A DAN! who is a homeopath or naturopath is typically going to do things more naturally and less invasive. Again, it’s a generalization. There are chiropractors, allergists and other types of doctors that are DAN!s as well, so it is really the type of doctor and treatment that best suits your needs. Many people go with a MD or DO because they can get insurance coverage for some of the services.

Homeopaths and Naturopaths doing things ‘naturally’. Heh. Does this lack of training in medical matters prevent them from performing things like chelation (source as above)?

…which is why we went with a homeopath/naturopath…….We decided to get the mercury out because I knew that Seth had had way too much put into him and it wasn’t coming out at all (he’s a non-excretor).

Homeopaths and Naturopaths doing chelation. Cool.

I talked to one yesterday (a DAN doctor mind you) and how he got qualifications to be one is beyond me. He told me has a couple of autistic patients and knows of the chelation process. If this is all that is required to be a DAN doctor then I don’t see a distinct advantage to them either.

Source.

Is your mind boggling yet? Here’s the reply to this commenter (source as above):

I think that being on the DAN list (in the past) meant something like that the person had attended some DAN training– or something rather general like this. Someone (in some post, somewhere) who went to the recent DAN conference wrote about that there is/was some discussion afoot to try to improve on this and make the
info on doctors more useful (or more detailed….or something??)

This doesn’t sound like a recipie for disaster at all. Was Roy Kerry a DAN! Doctor? I don’t know.

I came across some priceless websites pushing the DAN! protocol. They had numerous things in common, chiefly the disclaimer – all variations on the theme of:

this is not medical advice

Which is odd because from that point on, they mostly plough into what can only be thought of as _advice_ about what _medication_ an autistic child should take. There’s a fairly representative sample of what a dutiful DAN! Doc should do on the website of Miriam Jang MD. First, the usual copout from responsibility:

At this point, I would like to point out that this is not medical advice, even though I am a Medical Doctor. Rather, this is a wish for your child or your loved one(s) to have the advantage of what took us eight years to discover. Please take this as a medical disclaimer. All suggestions here should be done at your own risk.

‘Own risk’. Right. Or actually – wrong. She means the risk of the child receiving the treatment. Thats whos health will suffer when if it all goes wrong.

Dr Jang decides to lead off with some impressive science:

In both Chinese medicine and Ayurvedic medicine, the sages believed that there were only two ways to health: one was to correct deficiencies; the other was to get rid of toxicities.

Ayurvedic? What the hell?

This ancient art of healing has been practiced continuously for over 5,000 years. The principles of many natural healing systems now familiar in the West, such as Homeopathy and Polarity Therapy, have their roots in Ayurveda. Ayurvedic practices restore the balance and harmony of the individual, resulting in self-healing, good health and longevity.

So, DAN! Doctors are homeopaths and naturopaths who practice er, Polarity Therapy. Polarity Therapy? What the hell?

Polarity Therapy is a comprehensive health system involving energy-based bodywork, diet, exercise and self-awareness. It works with the Human Energy Field, electromagnetic patterns expressed in mental, emotional and physical experience.

Riiiight. OK. Back to er, Doctor (?) Jang. Basically, there’s a load of stuff with no cites – such as:

An important finding is that about 85 percent of Autistic kids are high in Copper and low in Zinc. Furthermore, these kids are very low in an important protein call Metallothionein, or MT Protein.

Hmm. Searching PubMed for ‘Metallothionein autism’ reveals two results. One is an inaccessible review and one is a free PDF published in the confidence inspiringly named ‘Alternative Medecine Review’. A Google search for the same reveals the predicted circus of quackery.

Except….another one of the mercury/autism darlings, Vijendra K. Singh has a paper that states:

serum level of MT did not significantly differ between normal and autistic children. Furthermore, autistic children harboured normal levels of anti-MT, including antibodies to isoform MT-I (anti-MT-I) and MT-II (anti-MT-II), without any significant difference between normal and autistic children.

A dilema, no? (You can read more on this paper here.)

Dr Jang continues with:

I will include a list of supplements that Marky is taking. There are many protocols, with many rationales. When we write down the dosages, please take into consideration that Marky is 11 years old and weighs 75 pounds. Please adjust your dosages according to your child’s weight.

Marky is her son. But isn’t it amazing how a DAN! Doctor is assuming parents know *how* to adjust medications for weight – and is happy to trust them to do so without medical supervision or even consultation!

Towards the end of her piece she says:

Please remember that, if you introduce your child to a new supplement, it is not unusual for the child to experience some adverse effects for a short while…When this happens, it does not necessarily mean that you should discontinue the supplement, unless the adverse effects are dangerous, or persistent….If there are adverse effects, stay at this dose until the adverse effects are gone, then proceed to a slightly higher dose, etc.

So there may be adverse effects but don’t stop unless the adverse effects are dangerous, instead stay on the same dose until the adverse effects are gone. I can’t imagine any Doctor thinking this is good advice. Interestingly, the following appeared from Dr Jang as part of an email newsletter:

I would like to start with some very serious news: we do have to be careful of Vitamin A toxicity with our sweet kids. There is a child with reported Vitamin A toxicity that was so severe that the child had to be hospitalized for 12 days.

Her patient? I wonder. Maybe the practitioner (whomever s/he was) read her advice to ‘stay on the same dose until the adverse effects are gone’.

Dr Jang tells us in relation to supplements that:

We noticed a difference in Marky in less than a week.

And yet later on she says:

In addition, you may not see the beneficial effects of these supplements for a period of time.

Something of a glaring contradiction. Which is true?

Anyway, having expounded all this good advice, Dr Jang closes with:

So, be curious and be persistent. Take good care of yourselves so that you can endure this arduous journey called “Autism”!

Yes, be curious – try everything that takes your fancy. Be persistent – whats a little Vitamin A poisoning between friends? And above all take good care of _yourselves_ so that _you_ can endure this journey…..except, its not _you_ who’s undergoing all these treatments is it? Its your child.

Dr Jang is also a big clay bath fancier (clay baths cure autism? Who knew?)

“…I have put a huge number of patients on these clay baths and the levels of heavy metals – mercury, lead, arsenic, aluminum, and cadmium have come down dramatically…I have been monitoring the levels of metals using all three methods (TD DMPS, oral DMSA and clay baths)and the clay baths are way faster in the removal of metals”.

Hoooo boy! Rashid’s going to be plenty pissed with her. Better than TD DMPS? Surely not! Why not use both? Smother your child with TD DMPS and then wash that stuff off in a nice clay bath? At least your child will have a nice happy splash in a bath.

So, Ken Aitken – welcome to your new role as a Dan! Doctor. I feel sure you can uphold the strong scientific standards your colleagues demonstrate.

125 Responses to “DAN! Protocol For Dummies”

  1. Zeldar March 24, 2006 at 01:59 #

    I keep wondering about how many of these kids with the extreme self injurious behaviors which are reported as 3rd hand and 4th hand knowledge, are really suffering from Lesch-Nyhan disorder. From 10 up to 40% of all people who fit the DSM-IV criteria for autism have a know genetic disorder, most of them aren’t diagnosed. A kid can have Frag X and no one knows it, since there are varying degrees of the number of repeats in Frag X which is basically correlated with the severity.

    Given the kind of extreme pressure that some of these parents put their kids under and the lack of understanding and support that some of them get (not all parents of autistics are bad parents, but statistically you have to admit that a large chunk of them must be bad parents or inadequate parents who are under supported) it’s no surprise that some of them act out.

    Tariq died at the hands of a man who is now under investigation by the authorities. That Ear Nose Throat doctor committed something like manslaughter, reckless endangerment of a child and Killer don’t care, so long as killer can keep attacking vaccines. Look at the handle he has chosen.

    The thieving quacks are like vultures. The Geiers are vultures…no really, that’s an indisputable fact in Germany.

    Everyone should be trying every day to dissuade parents from seeing DAN!(tm) docs. Jang is not the only one with the “oooooh, goody, look it’s a healing regression!!!” “YES! your child is running a fever and can’t breathe!! That’s a good sign! It’s a Herxheimer reaction. Lucky you!! (add another 10 exclamation points)” line. Buttar calls it a herkemer reaction in one of his online documents because he’s too dumb to check the spelling. Go read up on the highly exalted Dr. McCandless group and see how much they delight in reporting that their kids are sick. It’s a whole cult built up around rashes and pain and outbreaks and viral diseases and “oooh, gooody goody, your child vomited!! hurray!! and diarrhea tooo!! You really are blessed, soon Missy will be normal, too.”

    Go do a search on “fever” on the autism-mercury site and see how many parents discuss how they are worried and look for encouragement and directions from the fellow blind. It’s “Well, I wouldn’t worry until he’s lost consciousness darling, this is a good sign.” That sort of thing.

    I do expect more kids to die of DAN! induced health problems, or end up with a liver transplant like the little Nevada boy (Dr. Jang’s patient) just barely avoided.

    But they are just the price to pay for your experimentation aren’t they? You have your rights and that’s all that counts. Another dead child is no biggie. Another one in the hospital, so what?

    Chelation is old time quackery. It just got co-opted by vultures who swooped in on autism. Buttar probably invented his child’s autism in order to take advantage of what he was already dong (transdermal anti-aging quackery and IV cancer cure quackery).

  2. Sue M. March 24, 2006 at 02:02 #

    Ms. Clark,

    Why are you going by Zeldar now? A different day, a different alias.

    Sue M.

  3. David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending) March 24, 2006 at 02:06 #

    Alyric: ” I have to ask if your child has ever done any of this because ever since John (he’s the absolute best) Jr started talking about smearing faeces – you know – autistics like to paint the walls with this stuff, i’ve had, i think, good reason to pause and consider the veracity of these statements – tear jerkers every one.”

    JBJr is a frigging idiot.

    I have a serious problem with shit. I fucking hate the substance. I manufacture loads of it, because I have a coeliac thing going on, and I can definitely say that I – as an autistic – do not have a proprensity to smear the fucking stuff anyplace (not even over him, which I’m sure – given his recently aired obsession with my cock-and-bag unit – will fucking disappoint the perverted bastard). My daughter has an issue with shit too. She hates the substance. She is no more likely to smear shit on walls than I am to send a fucking idiotic perverted homophobic ego-dystonic homosexual (yeh, JBJr, this is you, boy!) a picture of my cock and fucking bag.

    And JBJr couldn’t afford to pay me even a hundredth of what it would need for me to send him a pic of my meat and two fucking veg. Not in a fucking million years. Sombody please tell him that his interest (he brought the issue up) in my fucking gonads is fuckign pathological!

    Time someone put that thick bastard in a home for the eternally bewildered.

  4. Zeldar March 24, 2006 at 02:13 #

    Sue M. Why are you going by “killerjabs” now? Or why is killer going by Sue M.? hmmmm.

  5. Dad Of Cameron March 24, 2006 at 05:59 #

    /re-cues Music
    DAAAAAAAAAAN..DAN!
    DAAAAAAAAAAN..DAN!
    DAAAAAAAN.DAN!
    DAAAAAAAN.DAN!
    DAN! DAN!..DAN! DAN!
    DAN! DAN!..DAN! DAN! DAN! DAN!..DAN! DAN!

  6. Zeldar March 24, 2006 at 06:09 #

    Yes. And if you replace one letter in “killerjabs” and you get “kiillerjaws” don’t you? Huh?

  7. M March 24, 2006 at 09:33 #

    Alyric – I’ve heard about smearing from non-biomed sources as well. There’s a quote in Charlotte Moore’s ‘George and Sam’ where she’s talking to the mother of an older boy with autism, and she says something like ‘Masturbation’s wonderful! He’s lost all interest in smearing now he’s found masturbation!’, which doesn’t sound to me like competetive thinking 🙂

  8. Kev March 24, 2006 at 10:39 #

    _”Self-injurious and aggressive behavior are absolutely present in some autistics. My son used to bang his head and his therapists helped me to pad his crib so that we had a safe place to keep him when this behavior occured.”_

    Of course they are, but thats not what you implied. You implied that Camille wasn’t concerned about these sort of behaviours which is a) untrue and b) not relevant. You further implied that without the intervention of a DAN! Doctor these reactions were common. This is also untrue.

    _”Just because that characteristic is not included in DSM IV doesn’t mean it doesn’t occur. I can think of some other common characteristics that aren’t listed in DSM IV.”_

    So can I but they are not intrinsically linked with autism. Rather they are comorbidities. The reason they are intrinsically associated is that they do not occur in all autisitics therefore they cannot be used to define or diagnose autism. This is true for the vast majority of items the Bernard paper mistakenly drew a connectin between mercury and autism also.

    _”I can’t vouch for the validity of every claim in the VAERS db but your argument is difficult to prove for the entries that preceeded the vaccine/autism controversy.”_

    I wasn’t making an argument, I was asking you a question. I recently recorded a video of myself (video is linked to in my previous comment) entering a report into VAERS that the DTP jab turned my daughter into Wonder Woman. This report has been accepted. Doesn’t that tell you a little bit about the accuracy of VAERS data?

    _”My interest is in autism. But anyone who associates autism with vaccines is viewed as an enemy to the vaccine program. “_

    Untrue. People such as Generation Rescue, SafeMinds, Boyd Haley, Rick Rollens, Lenny Schafer, RFK Jr et al who offer utterly unsubstantiated commentary insisting that all autism is solely attributable to mercury poisoning or that vaccines are solely to blame, or that vaccines are _mainly_ to blame are the people who need to be challenged. They _are_ threatening the health of the industrialised world – vaccine uptake _is_ negatively impacted as a result of their actions, killer diseases _are_ once more rising and have killed.

    You may be right, thiomersal might be totally to blame for autism but even if it _is_ true the utterly irresponsible way certain sections of people from ‘your’ side of the debate have demonised vaccination is criminal and _has_ resulted in death.

    _”Hmmm. Decisions. Decisions. I did not want to discuss my personal situation because it is pointless.”_

    Thats not what you stipulated and I addressed. You stated you didn’t want to deal with any discussion that would lead to a discussion of how you isolated the normal child development process from your assertion that your biomed treatment regime is the sole aspect of your childs treatment that has resulted in improvements.

    _”That being said, I don’t see how you and Ms. Clark can ignore parents when they speak of positives from biomedical interventions while simultaneously believing those same parents when they report a regression from the same interventions.”_

    I’m assuming you’re referring to the article Ms Clark quoted above? The reason I trust the regression story is that it was diagnosed by an _actual_ Doctor rather than a DAN! doctor – of whom naturopaths, herbalists, tea-ladies and road sweepers are free to join up.

    _”I really can’t imagine any DAN doc telling a parent to ignore the behaviors described in the post Ms. Clark so kindly posted here for all to see. The parent does not indicate that she ever called the DAN doc to let him know what was happening.”_

    So your reasoning is that because _you can’t_ imagine it, that automatically trumps our opinion that _we can_ imagine it? How does that work exactly?

    _”You can state chelation is inappropriate for autism but that’s your opinion only.”_

    No, its fact. It proceeds from the demonstrably false premise that autism is a form of mercury poisoning. It relies on ‘provoked’ metal tests and bizarre logic wherein if a childs hair sample continas next to no mercury its because they’re bad excretors except in the cases where it contains a glut of mercury which therefore is evidence that they are mercury poisoned. This is the kind of tortuous logic necessary to justify using a chemically altering process on a child.

    _”When administered correctly, it is extremely safe. There are many drugs used “off label.””_

    Of course there are but your assertion that ‘when administered correctly its safe’ is demonstrably false. Tariq is dead. Thats not safe. Rashid Buttar has swapped to a protocol using the exact same type of chelation Kerry used. He did this _before_ the coroners report was even in – does that sound safe or responsible to you?

    _”That’s true. What we don’t know is what caused the brain to be different. Hopefully, that will be determined soon.”_

    Hopefully, yes. But that doesn’t address the point. Chelation is a process that fundementally alters the chemical composition of the body. Autistic peoples brains are chemically different than non-autistics brains. How, given those facts, and given the total absence of any kind of safety tests, can you possibly claim chelation is safe? Do you know what the short, medium and long term effects might be? Of course you don’t. Neither do I. Nobody does. Not that that seems to be stopping anyone. No one seems to be saying – ‘woah now, this isn’t like chelating a non-autistic, chemically typical brain – maybe I’d better hold my horses until I know a bit more about what this could do in the long term’.

    _”Personally, I would never allow my son to be among the first to try something like chelation.”_

    I’ll bet.

    _”At this point, it has been used by thousands of autistic children. The DAN doctor we see has treated hundreds of children and is extremely dliligent in checking his patients for safety during chelation.”_

    Uh-huh, that renowned chelationist, the ENT specialist, Dr Roy Kerry was also said to be extremely dilligent and was personally recommended by Anju Usman. Thats no comfort to young Tariq I suspect.

    _”Besides, if it wasn’t safe I’m quite confident that Ms. Clark would already have data on it given her advanced skill in snooping.”_

    What? You mean reading and pasting something from a _public list_ – you’ve done exactly the same when you quote me.

    _”I wonder how you all feel about the mind altering ADHD drugs used by millions of children. Surely that affects the chemical makeup of the body. There are numerous claims of adverse effects from those drugs – and as far as I know they’re not being made by DAN doctors and those evil mercury parents so you might be more apt to believe them.”_

    Please. Nobody thinks you’re evil. Wrong. Badly advised. Not evil.

    As for the drugs you talk about – I don’t like them much. I think they need to be used as sparingly as possible but I also know that they enhance the lives of a lot of people, some of whom post on here.

  9. Nathzn March 24, 2006 at 13:54 #

    It is strange how killerjabs never mentions which form of Autism his son has. I’m asperger and I’ve never been self injuois, neither has my brother (also aspie) and neither have any of the autistics I know (low and high functioning), perhapes the reason killers’ (what an approriate name) son acts out in such a way is a result of having parent(s) that hate his very being might just have something to do with it.

    By the way, yes I am questioning your parenting skills (as I would those of any parent who would be willing to risk their child’s life in a futile attempt to eradicate something they don’t even understand).

    ps I’m dyslexic aswell so sorry for any spelling mistakes

  10. Sue M. March 24, 2006 at 15:36 #

    Kev wrote:

    “I wasn’t making an argument, I was asking you a question. I recently recorded a video of myself (video is linked to in my previous comment) entering a report into VAERS that the DTP jab turned my daughter into Wonder Woman. This report has been accepted. Doesn’t that tell you a little bit about the accuracy of VAERS data”?

    Kev,
    I did not have time to view your video but your description of it says it all. I find it a bit disturbing that you would intentionally commit a fraudulent act by messing with VAERS for the purpose of your ego. Do you have an equivalent to VAERS over in the UK? If so, would you mind screwing with that and keeping your hands off VAERS? Seriously. I doubt that any of us would disagree with you that it is not hard to enter a bogus claim into VAERS. Possibly there needs to be more investigators to look into the claims. Perhaps other measures should be taken. I don’t know. What I do know is that I imagine the completely bogus claims are extremely minimal. That’s not to say there aren’t cases where the parents/doctors believe that it was a vaccine reaction when it wasn’t or whatever… I’m sure that it happens. On the other hand, I can’t imagine how many people have had adverse reactions to vaccines who HAVE NOT made a claim with VAERS – that number would be astronomical.

    On another note, if you wanted to see how easy it was to enter a claim on VAERS, why didn’t you just use your own daughters real situation? This would have allowed you to be truthful instead of committing fraud. You could have talked about the DTP, your daughter’s subsequent “projective vomitting”, the fever, the rushed trip to the hospital, the change in her afterwards, etc…

    Sue M.

  11. Sue M. March 24, 2006 at 15:39 #

    Zeldar Clark wrote:

    “Sue M. Why are you going by “killerjabs” now? Or why is killer going by Sue M.? hmmmm”.

    – Definately not the same person. You must agree that Killerjabs is much more intelligent than I…

    Sue M.

  12. Dad Of Cameron March 24, 2006 at 15:42 #

    “Not that that seems to be stopping anyone. No one seems to be saying – ‘woah now, this isn’t like chelating a non-autistic, chemically typical brain – maybe I’d better hold my horses until I know a bit more about what this could do in the long term’.”

    Safety Testing = Horse
    Treatment = Cart
    Ethics 101: Horse BEFORE Cart, not vice versa,
    except in rare life-threatening situations.

  13. Sue M. March 24, 2006 at 15:49 #

    Dad of Cameron,

    Do yourself a favor and start preaching that same topic to the CDC, FDA and pharmaceutical companies please… They need some reinforcement.

    Sue M.

  14. Dad Of Cameron March 24, 2006 at 16:06 #

    No argument from me Sue.
    Two possible wrongs does not equal a right!
    And you’re right, they (the FDA) does need some reinforcement (as they oversee the IRB’s that appove current chelation research, based on flawed science and methodology).
    Even if the FDA, CDC, and the Pharms were (or are) as unethical as hell, it does not justify others to go ahead and skip the ethics.

  15. Kev March 24, 2006 at 16:36 #

    _”I find it a bit disturbing that you would intentionally commit a fraudulent act by messing with VAERS for the purpose of your ego.”_

    Purposes of my ego? Are you joking? I did it back up James Laidlers very similar experiment. Because Kev C thinks Jim was ‘bullshitting’ I decided to see for myself. I then published the results for all to see.

    If you want to talk about the _repeated_ messing with VAERS you could start with all those advocacy groups that encourage family members, friends etc to enter details of their autism diagnosis as evidence of adverse reaction.

    But never fear Sue, it won’t stand for long. What happened with Jim will happen with me too – they’ll contact me and ask if they can remove the entry. thats why I provided genuine contact details. Your lovely VAERS will go back to just being 90% corrupt instead of 90.000001% corrupt.

    _”Do you have an equivalent to VAERS over in the UK?”_

    Indeed we do – however, you have to speak to an actual person. Smart huh?

    _”I doubt that any of us would disagree with you that it is not hard to enter a bogus claim into VAERS. Possibly there needs to be more investigators to look into the claims.”_

    *Possibly* ? The Geiers committed a fradulent act on a much grander scale than mine when they intimated that VAERS was a good resource for data.

    _”What I do know is that I imagine the completely bogus claims are extremely minimal.”_

    Whereas I imagine they’re not. Cool huh? Maybe the Geiers should’ve…oh, I dunno….used a _decent_ source of data where the sources are unambiguous?

    _”I can’t imagine how many people have had adverse reactions to vaccines who HAVE NOT made a claim with VAERS – that number would be astronomical.”_

    Source for that claim?
    _” why didn’t you just use your own daughters real situation?”_

    because that would mean the kooks would get to see things like her date of birth etc. When I said I was done discussing her publicly I meant just that.

    _”You could have talked about the DTP, your daughter’s subsequent “projective vomitting”, the fever, the rushed trip to the hospital, the change in her afterwards, etc…”_

    Project_ile_ vomitting Sue. No such things as project_ive_ vomitting I beleive.

    I’m done discussing her publicly. Thats over. Finito. You lost the priveledge of hearing about her.

  16. killerjabs March 24, 2006 at 17:58 #

    Nathzn,

    “It is strange how killerjabs never mentions which form of Autism his son has.”

    Really? I must have missed the instructions stating that we all had to state our diagnosis prior to posting here. But if you’re so curious my son was diagnosed autistic although my therapists tell me he would now be diagnosed as PDD.

    “I’m asperger and I’ve never been self injuois”

    I’m sorry to hear that. People that go around questioning the parenting techniques of others with having ANY IDEA what they are talking about might benefit from some self-inflicted injuries.

    “perhapes the reason killers’ (what an approriate name) son acts out in such a way is a result of having parent(s) that hate his very being might just have something to do with it.”

    Honestly, it’s difficult for me to type right now. Your warped view that I hate my sons “very being” are just ridiculous. I love my son more than anything in this world. This notion from people like you that I hate him because I would dare try to improve his condition is sick and baseless. The insensitivity from you is disgusting.

    ‘By the way, yes I am questioning your parenting skills (as I would those of any parent who would be willing to risk their child’s life in a futile attempt to eradicate something they don’t even understand).”

    ONE CHILD DIED FROM A DAN TREATMENT AS THE RESULT OF AN ACCIDENT. ONE. CAN YOU READ? ONE. AND IT WAS AN ACCIDENT. YOUR STUPID, INSENSITIVE, UNINFORMED COMMENTS ABOUT RISKING A CHILD’S LIFE ARE RIDICULOUS. SOMETHING I DON’T UNDERSTAND? HOW CONVENIENT. THIS MAY BE NEWS TO YOU BUT THERE IS MUCH THAT NO ONE UNDERSTANDS ABOUT AUTISM. THERE IS NO MEDICAL TEST FOR IT. DIAGNOSING IT IS CLEARLY NOT EASY. NO ONE KNOWS WHY IT HAPPENS. BUT SOMEHOW YOU DECIDE THAT YOU UNDERSTAND IT AND SOMEONE LIKE ME THAT WOULD DARE CHANGE MY SON’S DIET, INCREASE HIS VITAMINS/MINERALS, AND USE TRANSDERMAL CHELATION THERAPY TO IMPROVE MY SON’S CONDITION DOESN’T UNDERSTAND IT. I’M HAPPY THAT YOU’RE PROUD OF THE WAY YOU ARE. MAYBE YOUR CONDITION IS PURELY GENETIC. MAYBE IT’S NOT. I DON’T KNOW AND I DON’T CARE. LIKEWISE, YOU DON’T KNOW IF MY SON’S CONDITION IS PURELY GENETIC OR NOT. I HAVEN’T SHARED ANY PERSONAL INFORMATION WITH YOU REGARDING MY SON. THERE ARE REASONS WHY I BELIEVE HIS CONDITION IS NOT PURELY GENETIC. BUT YOU KNOW WHAT? EITHER WAY, YOU’RE RUDE OPINIONS ARE NOT BASED ON FACT OR SCIENCE.

    If anyone wants to have a civil, logical discussion on the cause of autism there are discussions going on at other blogs. This particular thread seems to have developed into a pathetic gossip column. No offense to you Kev, as I don’t think you endorse the opinion of that pathetic loser Nathzn, but I’m done blogging on this thread. I know I shouldn’t let comments like that get to me but they are.

  17. Sue M. March 24, 2006 at 18:17 #

    Kev wrote:

    “But never fear Sue, it won’t stand for long. What happened with Jim will happen with me too – they’ll contact me and ask if they can remove the entry”.

    – That’s right, Kev. Maybe you should start practicing what you are going to say when they do call. Personally, I would be embarrassed and humiliated if I did something like that and someone from your VAERS equivalent had to call me to ask about it.

    Kev wrote:

    “Source for that claim”?

    – Anectdotal.

    Kev wrote:

    “Project_ile_ vomitting Sue. No such things as project_ive_ vomitting I beleive”.

    – Well, let’s see here. I made a typo on projectile vomiting. Did you also note that I added an extra “t” in vomiting? Oops, so did you. Oops, then I believe that you spelled believe wrong. Check that out.

    Sue M.

  18. Sue M. March 24, 2006 at 18:32 #

    Killerjabs wrote:

    “No offense to you Kev, as I don’t think you endorse the opinion of that pathetic loser Nathzn, but I’m done blogging on this thread”.

    – Actually, Kev is equally if not more critical of the treatments that you use for your child. I can assure you of that. You are right, though, this is not the place for civil, logical discussion.

    Sue M.

  19. McGuffin March 24, 2006 at 19:59 #

    … and the trolls reach a new low:

    “People that go around questioning […] might benefit from some self-inflicted injuries.”

  20. clone3g March 24, 2006 at 20:38 #

    Killer Jag wrote: The insensitivity from you is disgusting.

    Oh dear, an NT has had her feelings hurt.

    If anyone wants to have a civil, logical discussion on the cause of autism there are discussions going on at other blogs.

    Logical? I’m game. You first. Say something logical and then walk us through the logic.

  21. anonimouse March 24, 2006 at 22:43 #

    Killerjabs,

    I think your complaints are priceless, seeing as you asked me on another blog whether I had an autistic child and intimated that I had some financial stake in thimerosal.

    Pot, meet kettle.

  22. anonimouse March 24, 2006 at 22:48 #

    Sue,

    What I do know is that I imagine the completely bogus claims are extremely minimal. That’s not to say there aren’t cases where the parents/doctors believe that it was a vaccine reaction when it wasn’t or whatever… I’m sure that it happens. On the other hand, I can’t imagine how many people have had adverse reactions to vaccines who HAVE NOT made a claim with VAERS – that number would be astronomical.

    This is fascinating. One one hand, you suggest the number of bogus cases are minimal – despite the fact that lawyers and activist groups have been encouraging people to file VAERS reports for years. (and in fact, many VAERS reports have been filed by lawyers – apparently an inordinate number with regards to thimerosal)

    On the other, you know with some certainty that there are untold throngs of unreported severe vaccine reactions. (Yes, we know that not all reactions get reported to VAERS – what nobody knows is what percentage of those unreported reactions are severe or mild.)

  23. Kev March 24, 2006 at 23:00 #

    _”That’s right, Kev. Maybe you should start practicing what you are going to say when they do call.”_

    I’ll tell them the exact truth, including the reason. Why wouldn’t I? I’ll also offer them technical solutions as to how they could prevent occurances and tighten up their application process. Thats just the kind of sweet natured guy I am.

    _”Personally, I would be embarrassed and humiliated if I did something like that and someone from your VAERS equivalent had to call me to ask about it.”_

    I’m sure you would Sue. You _are_ the queen of double standards on here after all :o)

    _”Anectdotal.”_

    Translation: I made it up.

    _”Well, let’s see here. I made a typo on projectile vomiting. Did you also note that I added an extra “t” in vomiting? Oops, so did you. Oops, then I believe that you spelled believe wrong. Check that out.”_

    lol…bit touchy tonight Sue ;o)

    _”Actually, Kev is equally if not more critical of the treatments that you use for your child. I can assure you of that. You are right, though, this is not the place for civil, logical discussion.”_

    Sue’s quite right, I’m highly critical of treatments that have never undergone safety or eficacy testing for autism. I’m highly skeptical of their alleged benefits and wouldn’t recommend the organisations (DAN! GR, SafeMinds etc) as logical places to get open-minded opinions as to their merits or lack thereof.

    I tried being civil to you Sue and you repeatedly abused the priveledge. If you want to go and bleat about how horrid I am to you then feel free to set up a blog/website of your own and go for it.

    I’ve also tried being logical with you numerous times and again you simply don’t answer or retreat to anecdotes. You can’t argue from a logical place with someone who’s motto is ‘just beleive…the truth will set you free’ – thats fine for Hallmark and Disney movies Sue but this is real life.

  24. Sue M. March 25, 2006 at 00:08 #

    Kev wrote:

    “I’ll tell them the exact truth, including the reason. Why wouldn’t I? I’ll also offer them technical solutions as to how they could prevent occurances and tighten up their application process. Thats just the kind of sweet natured guy I am”.

    – I would hope that you would also offer up an apology at the end of the conversation. This would be warranted considering their huge waste of the time.

    p.s. you spelled believe wrong again…

    Sue M.

  25. Sue M. March 25, 2006 at 00:38 #

    Mouse wrote:

    “One one hand, you suggest the number of bogus cases are minimal – despite the fact that lawyers and activist groups have been encouraging people to file VAERS reports for years. (and in fact, many VAERS reports have been filed by lawyers – apparently an inordinate number with regards to thimerosal)”.

    – Most people have no idea that VAERS even exists, Mouse. Doctors deny vaccine reactions on a daily basis so certainly they are not going to be the ones to inform patients of their right to file with VAERS. Plus, take a look through the VAERS website:

    http://vaers.hhs.gov/vaers.htm

    It states right on there:

    “VAERS encourages the reporting of any clinically significant adverse event that occurs after the administration of any vaccine licensed in the United States. You should report clinically significant adverse events even if you are unsure whether a vaccine caused the event”.

    Note, they ENCOURAGE the reporting of any clinically significant event… EVEN IF you are unsure whether a vaccine caused the event. It is by no means perfect, but it’s a start.

    Sue M.

  26. clone3g March 25, 2006 at 01:10 #

    Hi Sue, another hypothetical pop quiz for you:

    Scientists create a vaccine to cure diabetes. Will you give it to your child with diabetes or stick to your guns?

  27. Sue M. March 25, 2006 at 02:07 #

    Clone wrote:

    “a vaccine to cure diabetes”.

    – The last I checked a vaccine by definition was to prevent a certain disease or condition, correct? How can we then have a “vaccine” to cure diabetes. It makes no sense. Would you care to ask the question in another way?

    Sue M.

  28. clone3g March 25, 2006 at 02:40 #

    No, your definition needs revision, it makes sense. So let’s say there is a vaccine to treat or cure diabetes, will you withhold it?

  29. Sue M. March 25, 2006 at 02:46 #

    Clone,

    What is your definition of vaccine?

  30. clone3g March 25, 2006 at 02:56 #

    My definition is irrelevant. Vaccines are being developed to treat a variety of disorders including various types of cancers. They are called vaccines even if they don’t fit your definition.

    What’s your answer?

  31. Zeldar M. March 25, 2006 at 02:59 #

    Killer Sue Jab’s eM,
    wrote:

    ONE CHILD DIED …. RANT RANT RANT…

    Yes, and other children have been seriously harmed by alt med for autism. Other children have been exorcised at the recommendation of Dr. Bradstreet. Or maybe all the parents looked at Bradstreet as if he were insane and told him to go take a flying leap.

    How many children had episodes like the boy who went to see the psychiatrist DAN! doctor in Florida who ended up in a hospital for nearly a week with aseptic menigitis? How many ended up with liver damage from too much vitamin A and haven’t been discovered by legitimate researchers as the Nevada boy was? How many of the kids whose parents get all happy about “healing regressions” have been harmed by those “healing regressions”?

    If a doctor told me that I should expect my child to get sick from a treatment, maybe yes, maybe no, might look like the flu, might be vomiting, that’s ok, might be a fever, that’s cool, might not eat for a few days, no problem, might start climbing the walls, that’s a good sign …(unless it was chemo for cancer, then we are looking at a life and death situation) I’d tell him to take a hike, or a flying leap.

    Nearly all the mercury parents believe that sick is good. How could that not lead to dead and maimed kids? Plus, the tendency to use meds way off label and to dose vitamins at way over the recommended level. Rimland’s recommendation for loads of B6 led to nerve damage in at least one kid as I heard it.

    James tells us that the glutathione in autistic kids shows a problem with too much oxidation. Then Bradstreet, the guy who cheated his patients with bait and switch Secretin and recommended exorcism, who is one of THE main DAN! docs if not THE main DAN! doc, believes that bit about oxidation and sells cures for oxidation, and also believes it can cause autism, goes and buys a HBOT toy and starts oxidizing children for fun and profit. Then he makes a joke about how he knows that it might be a bad idea since he already said oxidization was the problem, but that he’s doing it anyway, and it looks like it will help the kids.

    So which is it? Extra oxidation is good or it’s bad? Never mind just shut up and fork over the money to the quacks and everyone is happy, until a kid gets hurt or dies.

  32. Sue M. March 25, 2006 at 03:04 #

    Clone wrote:

    “My definition is irrelevant. Vaccines are being developed to treat a variety of disorders including various types of cancers. They are called vaccines even if they don’t fit your definition”.

    – Interesting. Can you show me an example of that? It just goes against every definition of “vaccine” that I’ve heard before.

  33. Sue M. March 25, 2006 at 03:19 #

    Did some of my own digging. Guess you were right about them calling some new cancer treatments “vaccines”:

    http://www.breastcancer.org/immune_fight_cancer.html

    Wouldn’t touch it for type 1 diabetes.

  34. clone3g March 25, 2006 at 03:23 #

    I can and will show you countless examples, but for the purposes of our discussion let’s assume the hypothetical cure is called a vaccine and behaves like one even if it doesn’t fit your definition. Would the word alone be enough for you to refuse? If that’s the case you’ve already answered.

    Let’s say it requires adjuvant to work so in that sense it is an immunization (vaccine)

  35. Jannalou March 25, 2006 at 03:28 #

    The U of C (That’s Calgary, for those who are unaware of my location) is developing a treatment for diabetes that would basically make the body start producing insulin again. I think it’s about to start clinical trials.

    Does nothing for the people who are insulin resistant, like my mom, but it would be wonderful for people with Type I, like my cousin.

  36. clone3g March 25, 2006 at 03:53 #

    Well let’s hope this doesn’t pan out then, for the sake of Sue’s conscience.
    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/03/24/MNGUBHTD8N1.DTL

    …injecting diabetic mice with Freund’s Complete Adjuvant, a mixture of water, oil and parts of dead bacteria. It overstimulates the immune system cells that are attacking the pancreas, making those white blood cells self-destruct…

  37. Kev March 25, 2006 at 07:27 #

    _” – I would hope that you would also offer up an apology at the end of the conversation. This would be warranted considering their huge waste of the time.”_

    I might well offer an apology the lawyers, so-called advocacy groups and their apologists have made resorting to this level of demonstration a necessity.

    _”p.s. you spelled believe wrong again…”_

    I spell lots of things wrong Sue – I’m a shitty typist.

    Oh and Sue? Look what else it says on the VAERS website:

    _”The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event.”_

    You can’t ignore the bits you don’t like Sue and neither can the Geiers.

  38. David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending) March 25, 2006 at 11:09 #

    Kev (from the VAERS site): “The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event.”

    Isn’t this exactly what the mercury parents have been doing, you know… namely using it *as if it were* documentation that a vaccine caused the event?

    Oh dear…. their whole argument looks pretty shaky, with just that error of interpretation.

  39. Sue M. March 25, 2006 at 15:25 #

    Clone,

    Faustman’s work has been talked about for a while now. It’s not new. Now there are others who replicated it. Wonderful. Hope they keep up the good work.

    Sue M.

  40. Sue M. March 25, 2006 at 15:30 #

    Kev wrote:

    “I might well offer an apology the lawyers, so-called advocacy groups and their apologists have made resorting to this level of demonstration a necessity”.

    – How about taking responsibility for yourself, Kev? YOU will owe the apology for writing that your daughter turned into Wonder Woman on their database.

    Kev wrote:

    “Oh and Sue? Look what else it says on the VAERS website”:
    “The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event.”

    – Yes, I understand that Kev. It’s not perfect. I thought I already mentioned that. Maybe you missed it.

    Sue M.

  41. clone3g March 25, 2006 at 16:17 #

    Sue M. Faustman’s work has been talked about for a while now. It’s not new. Now there are others who replicated it. Wonderful. Hope they keep up the good work.

    No, Faustman’s work is not new, that wasn’t my point. Attempts to replicate the experiments involving spleen cells were unsuccessful because, as it turns out, the trick is in the adjuvant and immunization. It’s a vaccine.

    Maybe if you paid more attention to the latest diabetes research instead of autism I wouldn’t have to explain it to you. After all, your perfect children aren’t affected by autism, right?

  42. Kev March 25, 2006 at 20:40 #

    _”How about taking responsibility for yourself, Kev? YOU will owe the apology for writing that your daughter turned into Wonder Woman on their database.”_

    I’ll be sur to profer one Sue. I’ll also pass on your email address so they can contact you to get an apology for all the fradulent entries claiming vaccines caused their childs autism. You can pass VAERS admin on to all those people right?

    _”Yes, I understand that Kev. It’s not perfect. I thought I already mentioned that. Maybe you missed it.”_

    Nope, I just thought you needed reminding. These things seem to have a habit of dropping out your head.

  43. Sue M. March 25, 2006 at 23:01 #

    Kev wrote:

    “I’ll also pass on your email address so they can contact you to get an apology for all the fradulent entries claiming vaccines caused their childs autism”.

    -Don’t bother, Kev. People do not have to apologize for entering their child’s autism into VAERS if they believe that it was the trigger/cause of their child’s autism. I understand that this upsets you but it says right there on the VAERS site. Enter the information “even if you are unsure whether a vaccine caused the event”. It is not perfect (not even close) but certainly there are people who believe that vaccines caused their child’s illness or condition (rightly or wrongly). VAERS is a tool, Kev. That’s all. Nobody said that it was perfect, not even the Geiers who simply asked for more research to be done.

    Sue M.

  44. Zeldar M. March 25, 2006 at 23:43 #

    The Geiers. those are the Geiers who say that there are sheets of testosterone that bind up mercury and you need to give toxic big pharma drugs to little kids to unbind these non-existent sheets of testosterone.

    Kathleen just wrote something interesting about them and the VSD that they abused on the neurodiversity blog. These are the Geiers that Erik N give free advertising to. Thanks, Erik Nanstiel. What would autistic kids do without you?

  45. Sue M. March 26, 2006 at 00:02 #

    Zeldar M. Clark wrote:

    “Kathleen just wrote something interesting about them and the VSD that they abused on the neurodiversity blog”.

    – Let’s just hope that she then recommends that someone other than the Geiers does get access. Its ok that you don’t want the Geiers — but don’t you agree that with something so important… the data needs to be seen? I hope that Kathleen would agree… here’s to hoping that she will have the brains to say that. Let me go look.

    Sue M.

  46. Sue M. March 26, 2006 at 00:07 #

    Nothing… not surprised. Fiddle on.

    Sue M.

  47. clone3g March 26, 2006 at 03:37 #

    As of October 2004, the NIP had received proposals requesting the use of VSD
    data from a very small number of researchers. In September 2002, the NIP received
    proposals from one group of researchers for 13 new vaccine safety studies and 11
    reanalyses (CDC, 2004d). Those proposals were revised and slightly modified. The first
    group of researchers visited the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) Research
    Data Center (RDC) in October 2003 and January 2004 (Geier and Geier, 2004) to analyze
    the VSD data for which their access was approved. In August 2003, the NIP received a
    proposal from another researcher for a reanalysis of a published VSD study of the
    association between measles-mumps-rubella and varicella vaccines and type 1 diabetes
    (CDC, 2004f). The researcher’s proposal was complete, but at the time of this writing the
    researcher had not pursued the next steps in the process.

  48. Michael Ralston March 26, 2006 at 08:03 #

    Fascinating. Killer doesn’t seem to recognize that if something is “risky” that doesn’t mean that when bad things happen they were deliberate.

    It just means that those accidents are more likel than if it wasn’t risky, and that the ethical issues arise BECAUSE of those risks – and chelation is risky. It’s risky when used “on label” in a hospital, let alone “off-label” in a doctor’s office – where if something goes wrong, the corrective facilities aren’t just down the hall.

    But, you see, that off-label use means that the risk needs to be examined quite a bit more carefully, because the reward is a hell of a lot less certain. (Not to mention nowhere near as good even if it were certain.)

    And, yeah, let’s not forget cooking kids in saunas until they try to break windows and climb out to save their lives when we’re talking about these “biomed” treatments, hmm?

  49. Zeldar M. is not Sue March 26, 2006 at 09:40 #

    I don’t care who looks at the vaccine safety database so long as they have scruples and are honest. The Geiers don’t have scruples and are not honest that’s plain enough to me. The problem is that no matter what the investigators find, if the mercury parents *like Sue M* hear what they don’t want to hear they will cry “CONSPIRACY” because there is no data that will change their minds. Once you start invoking conspiracy conspiracy it’s hard to stop invoking conspiracy, right, Sue M?

  50. David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending) March 26, 2006 at 11:11 #

    This is kinda relevant, since it is about the whole issue of whether one should “defeat autism” at all:

    Any Mouse (in an otherwise seriously fucked up blog) said-

    “Well the fact is: There is no normal anyway. The range of behaviours within the “normal” range is broad and varied and arbitrarily chosen, and for an autistic person behaviour often falls outside that range, but is no less varied or different.”

    Seems that Any Mouse has been reading some of his wife’s developmental psychologiy books… 🙂 I do have a feeling that he knows a lot of this from other sources too ….

    “Developmental stages are often mixed up with autistic people, but autistic people do develope, so please throw away Piaget and Spock.”

    🙂

    “I mentioned that autistic people could be helped to learn a certain skill set so they can function safely socially in society. Well, one of the greatest social dangers to autistic people in society are people with attitudes like john best. John best is the one here who really needs the help.”

    I think so too. For a number of reasons already given.

    “Any Mouse”

    Thank you Any Mouse 🙂

Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: