Dear Mr Wakefield,
Following your announcement of a link between the MMR vaccine and autism, uptake rates of this vaccine in the UK have fallen to amongst the lowest in Europe:
Take-up rates of the jab dropped throughout the UK, down to less than 70% in some areas, after a small-scale study published in The Lancet in 1998 by Dr Andrew Wakefield suggested a link to autism.
In 2004, mumps cases in the England and Wales rose from 4,204 in 2003 to 16,436 in 2004, nearly a four-fold increase.
And in the first month of 2005, there were nearly 5,000 cases. Most were among young adults born before 1988 and who would, therefore, not have been offered MMR as a child. In the second paper, Dr Ravindra Gupta, from London’s Guy’s and St Thomas’, working with colleagues from King’s College London, found cases have also occurring in very young children who would have been eligible for the MMR – measles, mumps and rubella – vaccine…..Dr Gupta (…) said uptake of MMR among two-year-olds in the UK fell from around 92% in early 1995 to around 80% in 2003/4.
In October 2004, experts predicted that due to falling vaccination uptake, the UK would start to suffer from ‘small outbreaks’:
The medical newspaper Pulse has warned that there could be a measles epidemic this winter on a scale last seen in the 1960s. It said that lowering levels of immunity meant as many as 12% of children and 20% of adults could be hospitalised if infected by measles.
And now, this year, 18 months after this warning, we have the UK’s first measles induced fatality in 14 years.
The 13-year-old who died last month lived in a travellers’ community. It is thought that he had a weakened immune system; he was being treated for a lung condition. The boy died of an infection of the central nervous system caused by a reaction to the measles virus. The Health Protection Agency described his death as shocking.
The Times also says that of the 72 reported measles cases last month, 9 required hospitalisation – this tallies almost exactly with the 2004 prediction of a hospitalisation rate of 12%.
I have a few questions for you Mr Wakefield.
Do you accept that there is a strong causative correlation between the falling MMR vaccine uptake and the rise in both mumps and measles? If you do not, could you please explain why not. If you do could you please explain what you feel is your role in these matters.
Is it true that, as reported by Brian Deer in the Times and in the Channel 4 current affairs programme ‘Dispatches’, that you received up to £55,000 to find scientific evidence of a link between MMR and autism and that you did not disclose you were being funded through solicitors seeking evidence to use against vaccine manufacturers?
Is it true that the vast majority of your subjects from the Lancet study were not, as you claimed, captured through the normal referral process, but actually supplied to you by lawyers representing these people and their families in vaccine litigation?
Is it true that up to nine months prior to the publication of your paper showing a link between the MMR vaccine and autism that you and the Royal Free (where you conducted your research) filed numerous patent applications which were alternatives to the MMR vaccine? If you did, would you consider it a lucky guess that led you to do this seeing as your MMR paper had yet to be published?
Do you believe, like your collaborator Hugh Fudenberg, that:
Some parents would rather see their kid die than live as a severely autistic.
These are serious matters Mr Wakefield. I’m aware that you are pursuing three court cases related to these matters (although at least one is currently stayed) and you are also due to be investigated by the GMC sometime this year but as the parent of an autistic child – in short exactly the sort of person you claim to want to help – I need answers now. What I read of you indicates wrong doing on a grand scale. If these things are established to be true you are guilty of not only extreme medical negligence but also of betraying thousands of parents and forcing thousands of autistic children to undergo totally unnecessary and highly invasive medical procedures.
You need to account for yourself Mr Wakefield. Please don’t wait for more children to be hospitalised or die.
Left Brain Right Brain 
Well said. This is real evidence of harm. Though I take no pleasure in saying that 😦
Are vaccines in the UK optional? Here in the US, most children are required to have their shots (I like “jabs” – a much better term, though I feel silly using it) up to date to enter school, so by 4 or 5, just about all of the country (barring religious wackos and their ilk) have had the MMR.
I’m waiting for the anti-vaxers to show up and “explain” it all away, especially the part about how it’s okay to die from measles (or be rendered sterile by mumps), in the name of “better health”.
Following your announcement of a link between the MMR vaccine and autism, uptake rates of this vaccine in the UK have fallen to amongst the lowest in Europe… In 2004, mumps cases in the England and Wales rose from 4,204 in 2003 to 16,436 in 2004, nearly a four-fold increase.
MMR uptake falls and mumps cases rise. That’s not surprising. But does he at least have anything to show in terms of falling autism incidence? I don’t think so. What an embarrasment and what a screw-up.
He has backed himself into a corner.
I’m not sure if their is a way back for him, even if he wanted to take it. It is easier for him to maintain his position with the true believers, than go back. Not that he isn’t a true believer:
“the upside of infection, yes the upside of infection, we are survivors of infection, we are here not in spite of infection, but because of infection. Our immune system has been conditioned over millions and millions of years by infection, and if we alter the way in which infection is delivered to our systems we must expect that by changing the ecosystem, there will be a downside, there will be attrition, we will render some children damaged.”
And I have to wonder how many of the parents of the non-vaccinated children included in that 12,500 (approx) increase in mumps cases now would disagree with that “whoreson Z” and “wholy un-necessary letter” Fudenberg when he says:
“Some parents would rather see their kid die than live as a severely autistic.”
I’d say not many.
“Some parents would rather see their kid die than live as a severely autistic.â€
Doctors, the media, and autism pseudo-experts cause parents to feel this way unfortunately.
With all due respect, Kev, I think you’re painting with a very wide brush here. First, the young man who died was particularly susceptible as he had a weakened immune system.” Moreover, “he lived in a travelling community where levels of MMR vaccination are low. Travellers groups [said] they felt they weren’t included in the healthcare system.” “Source. Accordingly, the publicity surrounding Dr. Wakefield’s likely had no impact whatsoever on lack of vaccination by the family.
With regard to Dr. Fudenberg’s comment, I can’t help but notice that you omit the comments that followed it on the EoH list, including this one from one parent (I normally would not post something from the list without first asking the poster, but under the circumstances, I don’t think she would object):
When I read this it sent chills up my spine. The lack of hope that some parents have has lead them to homicide unfortunately as well. It’s indeed something that we also have to focus on as a community,
what lack of supports too can do to individuals.
Additionally though I don’t think I could ever feel this way about our son, never did when he was severely affected by the disorder. If we did we would have never seen him accept recognition from his school board in 2004 for his community efforts, being on the honor roll, and also receiving a national Temple Grandin honor that year.
His triumphs would have never occurred without that hope and the love we feel for our son. I don’t give way to folks that think their kids would be better off dead. Sorry but it’s just not right and suffering can be diminished greatly with love and support.
We also cannot accept that thought process in my opinion. Where would all of our kids be that have come so far if we did that?
That’s how most of us feel. Most of us do not feel — nor would we want to feel — that our children’s autism is equivalent to the tragedy that the English family is now enduring.
Wade,
two words. Herd immunity. People who are ill are depending on the rest of us not to be providing germs lovely homes within our bodies.
If you are in delicate health you don’t want to walk into a community where there are people with “normal” health who are all toting around measles germs in various stages of infection. Sure, it’s not skin of their noses, they have the immune systems to fight it… but depending on the germ different people are horrifically susceptible to these germs and if we all get vaccinated as is recommended, especially children… then we make less fertile breeding ground for these germs who don’t really care if we die or not.
You might want to read, “plagues and peoples.” You might want to read up on “herd immunity”… the phrase that sends the antivaxers into flaming fits of rage. With “how dare you insist on herd immunity??” etc.
Without vaccines there could be no stable populations within cities, it would not be possible.
Without herd immunity the fallout of the Katrina disaster would have been even more horrific.
That traveller boy needed to be in a “herd” with herd immunity, the herd failed him. More will die this way. Thanks, antivaxers.
Thanks, Wakefield.
as to Fudenberg, yes there were a couple of comments of people who didn’t agree. If he had said that on aut-advo, he would have been descended upon en masse, and probably kicked off the board.
That man is a danger, in my opinion. He’s also the grandaddy of this mess with mumps epidemics and so far one measles death. By extension he can take “credit” for the babies who died of Pertussis in California recently.
Antivax attitude stinks.
Ms. Clark wrote:
“Antivax attitude stinks”.
-Pro-poison pushers are equally stinky…
Sue,
At the point you prove with any degree of certainty that thimerosal causes autism (or any serious health problem, for that matter) in a similar scope to VPD outbreaks, then you can make your pithy little comment.
Ms. Clark: _You might want to read, “plagues and peoples.†_
This is the reference, it is an excellent read:
Mouse:
It is up to YOU and “YOUR SIDE” to prove the safety of thimerosal in vaccines and the safety of the MMR given when the immune system is compromised. Until you can do that… why don’t you insist that more studies and research be done. What are you so incredibly afraid of? Squeak away mouse, it goes nicely with the fiddling.
It is up to YOU and “YOUR SIDE†to prove the safety of thimerosal in vaccines and the safety of the MMR given when the immune system is compromised.
The burden of proof is on the side making the extraordinary claim, i.e. that 130 micrograms of mercury can make someone autistic. (Second time burden of proof comes up).
For ferx-sakes, people… please….
Nobody feed the troll… although, Joseph…. nice comeback 😉
Ah, sod the troll… let her dig her own “literary” grave like JBJr’s doing 🙂
Joseph wrote:
“The burden of proof is on the side making the extraordinary claim, i.e. that 130 micrograms of mercury can make someone autistic. (Second time burden of proof comes up)”.
-Clearly, it is never a good idea to inject babies with thimerosal. Forget about autism. Stupid, stupid, stupid. That being said, if you cannot prove the safety of the vaccines that are given to babies then people should (and need to) question them. You really can’t have it both ways. You can’t say on the one hand… we really can’t prove the safety of vaccines, it’s up to you to prove that they are NOT safe. Then, on the other hand say… you need to vaccinate, vaccinate, vaccinate for the good of the herd. Sorry, it doesn’t work like that. Are they safe or aren’t they? Come on, are they?
Nice kev
I think I was a bit nicer about Wakefield,: http://alyric.blogspot.com/2005/11/letter-to-lenny.html
What i said about Phillips and ‘proving safety’ applies just as well to our troll.
So changing the route to immunisation has an automatic downside does it – and this is because….?? i suppose that’s the only corner left to hide in but as this is mere conjecture – are there lots of experiments in the pipeline to prove it?
Sue said: “-Clearly, it is never a good idea to inject babies with thimerosal.”
Sue, you’ve escaped logic again.
Using your logic, one could arrive at the following conclusion:
The air babies breathe contains mercury. At some amount, mercury is toxic to humans. Clearly, it is never a good idea to let babies breathe.
There’s likely no one here that wouldn’t agree that reducing/removing air pollution would be a good idea and likewise, reducing/removing Thimerosal from vaccines is certainly not opposed. Not vaccinating and not breathing are not good ideas.
I really can’t prove the safety of breathing…Breathe, Breathe, Breathe!
There has never ever been any thimerosal in the MMR vaccine at any time. So any statements about thiomersal or thimersal are irrelevant to any discussion to the damage caused by Wakefield being paid by a lawyer to come up with specific “research”.
HN…
Nice one 😀
HN: “There has never ever been any thimerosal in the MMR vaccine at any time.”
Maybe this is why SueM has changed her tune…. “Clearly, it is never a good idea to inject babies with thimerosal. Forget about autism.”
Or maybe she’s just to stupid to grasp this point.
When you look at the tonnage. Tons and tons of mercury is put into the air yearly.
Come on. That’s not tons of pollution containing a percentage of mercury, that’s
tons
of
mercury.
In the US a ton is 2000 pounds. How big a lump is 2000 pounds of elemental mercury? How big a lump is 2000 pounds of mercury mixed with carbon and hydrogen? I don’t know how that works out in Kilograms but it’s a whole bunch of mercury.
Most of it must settle near the coal fired power plants, but apparently, even though mercury is very heavy, it does get moved a bit by wind.
If I had the money, I’d walk around any old place and just randomly check how much mercury is in dust outside and dust inside.
If tons have been put into the air yearly by many (all?) nations, then mercury is everywhere, logically.
That’s besides what was there before the industrial revolution. Mercury is part of the earth.
But Sue and Wade, I’m guessing, see the planet as pristine and nearly mercury free, at least before the 1990’s, and whereever they are now there’s no really no mercury “threatening” their kids outside of those “stupid” vaccines.
The are deluding themselves to think that if their kids never had been vaccinated or eaten fish that they never would have had vaccine levels of mercury in their bodies.
No, Sue, injecting newborns was with a tiny bit of thimerosal was never “stupid.” Thimerosal had been “grandfathered” in based on a massive amount of use of thimerosal and very few people ever showing any ill effects. That’s the way many old time medications got grandfathered in.
There’s no reason to think that thimerosal in vaccines ever ever caused any problems, because any baby that couldn’t cope with that much thimerosal couldn’t cope with life in this old toxic, toxic, toxic world and would be dying, or needing to live in a bubble for it’s whole life with ultra carefully monitored food.
(is that the sound of the law firm of Waters & Kraus weeping?)
Toxins are everywhere. Germs are everywhere and the best protection for us all is to get the vaccines that are available. Sue and Wade’s kids–if they aren’t vaccinated– and it would seem that Sue’s are not up on their vaccines– and that Wade’s probably aren’t— will get a free ride so long as all their neighbors kids are vaccinated. Let everyone else take the risk (yes there is risk) and get the free ride that comes with herd immunity… until you get too many free-riders and then people start to die at a much higher rate that Sue’s antivax inflamed imagination and her falsely inflated stats regarding the dangers of vaccines.
Thanks HN for digging up the details on the book. I was in a hurry and couldn’t even get the author’s name. “Plagues and Peoples” is a reality check on how germs behave when you put a certain number of people in proximity. Once you hit a certain number there WILL be outbreaks of disease that will knock out sections of the population, like clockwork.
“Childhood diseases” have the power to wipe out entire communities if they haven’t been exposed to them before, and without vaccines “herd immunity” can be had to a certain extent after many, many people (the weaker ones) are dead.
My child is vulnerable to lung problems, flu and other germs that a normal 20ish person can just laugh at might kill my kid. Some of us are depending on “herd immunity” some autistic kids with poor immune systems might be alive now just because of herd immunity. Those are the people who NEED the “free ride” sometimes.
The CDC is not Satan, the IOM is not Beelzebub, the FDA is not the Illuminati. They do care about who gets vaccines and what the effect of those vaccines is. They are doing research on vaccines. It’s stupid to say that they aren’t interested in vaccine safety, stupid, stupid, stupid.
It’s the psychotic people (who fear the black coated guys in the black helicopters with their fearsome mind control techniques)
who insist that
the public health doctors and agencies are
out to destroy us
or are so careless
that to them a few dead or
a few thousand damaged here or there are nothing, something to be laughed at.
That’s a delusion. That’s psychosis. That’s paranoia. That’s what Lenny et al are spreading, and children will die because of it. If rubella takes off, unborn children will die, be born deformed and maybe become autistic because of it. If polio takes off some children will never walk again.
Hopefully, the parents of the injured will come knocking at Lenny’s door and Wakefield’s door, and Fudenberg’s door, and Yazbak’s door…and lay the blame where it belongs.
Hmm HN, a very good point. I don’t want to stray off the topic, but I do wonder to what degree Wakefield’s specific research has influenced anti-vaccination views in general, and may have farther reaching implications than just MMR.
Wade – I’m not linking Wakefield with this boy’s death. I very purposefully (with a wary eye to Wakefields propensity for litigiation) stayed away from making that asociation. However what this lad’s death _does_ indicate is both:
a) MMR vaccination helps herd immunity
b) Measles is vastly less prevalent when the MMR vaccine reaches herd, or close to herd levels.
Fundeberg is an assoicate of Wakefields. I was passing no comment on the EoH board itself, rather asking him if he shared his assoicaites view of the value of autistic people. In a very real sense the main is the ‘godfather’ of the MMR debacle.
Sue – you want data on the safety of vaccines? Lets compare it to the safety of chelation shall we? Go take a little maths test.
You only seem to bay for safety data on things you personally don’t like. Me? I’d be overjoyed to have safety data on both widely available. I’m pretty sure which one would be considered safer, numerically.
“HERD IMMNUITY”?
What exactly is “herd immunity”?
Are there any studies that prove that such a thing (“herd immunity”) exists?
Vaccinated people act as a sort of “firebreak” in the spread of the disease, slowing or preventing the further transmission of the disease to others. Since the protection offered by vaccines is rarely 100%, the vaccine will be more effective if more people have been vaccinated. This is because the disease may be able to jump from one unvaccinated person to another person who has not been vaccinated, but is unlikely to be able to jump from one unvaccinated person to another who has been vaccinated.
Vaccination has not been responsible for the major decline in infectious diseases’, despite what you may have heard from those promoting vaccines. Improvements in living conditions including improved sanitation, hygiene, water supplies and housing, better nutrition and isolation procedures have been the main reasons for this.’ In New Zealand the death rate from childhood diseases declined by up to 98 between 1890 and the 1940s before vaccination was introduced.
Scarlet fever declined steadily throughout the 20th century to the point of being almost eradicated without the use of vaccination. The decline in the death rate from measles, whooping cough, tuberculosis and diphtheria in New Zealand before vaccination is mirrored by the statistics from other countries such as the United States,’ England and Wales3 and Australia.4 It has been estimated that only 3.5 of the decline in death rate from infectious diseases can be attributed to the combined effect of vaccination and drugs.
Vaccines are commonly believed to work by producing antibodies. However, a number of researchers have found that the presence of antibodies only indicates that the immune system has come into contact with an antigen. One medical paper said that “it is known that, in many instances, antigen-specific antibody litres do not correlate with protection.” For example, it has been established that there is no clear correlation between antibody levels and protection against whooping cough and that there is no generally accepted laboratory measure of immunity. The medical community does not have even a basic understanding of the human new-born immune system. Studies show that the immune systems of new-born animals can easily be perturbed to ensure that they cannot respond properly later in life. Two generations of vaccination has made today’s babies more vulnerable to disease because vaccinated women pass less antibodies on to their babies than those women who have natural immunity to disease, making the babies of vaccinated women more susceptible to disease in the first year of life.” Vaccination has been proven in medical studies to make children more susceptible to disease for a period afterwards due to its ‘overload’ effect on the immune system leading to generally lowered resistance. Viral vaccines have been shown to depress cellular immunity, which serves as the body’s first line of defence against infection and disease. This suppression of the cellular immune system results not in the prevention of disease but the inability of the body to manifest, to respond to and to overcome disease!
There have been no long-term safety studies conducted on vaccines in which the health of vaccinated children is compared with a group of unvaccinated ‘control’ children! Vaccine safety tests are based on poor scientific methodology, the studies are too small, too short, and too limited in the populations represented, and are not subject to independent criticism.
Ms Clark – I’d have to look the figures up, but I think that the first evidence from ice cores of atmospheric heavy metal pollution (ie, probably man-made) is from 800BC. It’s been a not-pristine world for an awfully long time.
Source Kevin?
You might want to have a read of this. Or have a read of this.
What exactly is “herd immunity�
What exactly is “Google”?
“In New Zealand” Ha, quoting the IAS (small anti-vaccination group in NZ).
1: They are JAFA’s* (big strike against)
2: They think they live in the US (at least thier material all comes from there with little editing) including the great US medical conspiracy which does not work when applied to a public health system and voluntary immunisation. I encountered some of their members in forums promoting them and honestly it is ludicrous what they come out with. It just doesn’t fit.
3: Can’t say this “Vaccination has not been responsible for the major decline in infectious diseases” and then say this “decline in death rate” because death rate is not an indicator of decline – incidence and/or morbidity is.
4: The bacteria that causes Scarlet Fever is sensitive to penicillin and due to it’s use it almost died out, but seems to be making a comeback due to reductions in anti-biotic use. Had a neighbour down my street get it the other day (for real).
5: “antigen-specific antibody litres do not correlate” well its “titres”, using the right spelling would make it look more scientific. With no proper references it is impossible to check the quote-mined part. In any case the proof lies in the reduction in incidence of these diseases, studies showing efficacy and attack rates whether or not anti-bodies correlate well.
6: Makes a statement of fact (the last paragraph) with no qualifications as to the studies, but no doubt it is just regurgitated anti-vaccine material from the US. Basically this is opinion not fact.
http://www.immune.org.nz/site_resources/Professionals/IAS_critique_2003.pdf
Counters this and other misinformation in the pamphlet the IAS produces.
* just another F’ing Aucklander. (you can tell I don’t live anywhere near 🙂
Kevin, we found Measles, Rubella and Herpes viruses in my daughter’s inflamed intestines. The Herpes was likely due to a contaminated MMR vaccine.
The MMR is NOT safe for those who are immune compromised, such as those, like my daughter, who were mercury poisoned.
Erik
EN: “The Herpes was likely due to a contaminated MMR vaccine.”
If you were told specifically that it could have been due to a *contaminated* MMR vaccine, what does that tell you about the majority of the stock?
It *should* tell you that it was a rare event, and had to do with something in the vaccine your daughter got (but which was very highly likely to have been absent from the greater proportion of the rest of the stock).
It *should* tell you that – given the lack of evidence supporting a link between autism and the MMR vaccine generally (and the lack of evidence of a link between thimerosal and autism) – maybe your daughter’s situation was a post-herpetic infection in the brain itself.
If your daughter was typical in her development (let’s say, until the herpetic issue came up) and *then* she lost the most of the gains she made during that development, then you really are dealing with Heller’s syndrome (which is in fact what Wakefield’s original study was looking at, until the name of the developmental syndrome was changed to cover all of the so-called “pervasive developmental disorders”).
Heller’s syndrome info can be found here: http://www.patient.co.uk/showdoc/40002248/
Note that the differential dxs include all other PPDs, which means that – when Heller’s syndrome (which could be described as a “regressive autism”) presents, then Heller’s syndrome should be the dx given (since the differential dxs must all be ruled out systematically to find the diagnosis which best fits the presenting behavioural profile).
Dad of Cameron wrote:
“The air babies breathe contains mercury. At some amount, mercury is toxic to humans. Clearly, it is never a good idea to let babies breathe”.
-Dad, how is it that I have escaped logic? It seems to me that all of you pro-poison pushers have escaped logic. I am saying that it was and continues to be very dangerous to inject babies with thimerosal (mercury). So, you want to turn it around and change the topic to breathing our toxic air. Hey, I agree. We need to look much more closely at the environment that we live in. In fact, the AAP has gone on record about the dangers of mercury pollution in the air causing learning disabilities, autism, etc (huh)? The problem is Dad, INJECTING poison into the developing systems of babies is just a tiny bit different than allowing a baby to breathe. Yes, but of course, I’m sure that you’ll be able to find something illogical about my comments. Go figure.
Illogically Yours,
Sue M.
If I might muscle in Sue?
The point I believe DoC was making was related to dosage. Something that still escapes your radar.
To make it clear: the amount of thiomersal in vaccines is miniscule. The amount of mercury in the air is miniscule. At the dosage prescribed its simply not demonstrable that either breathing or injecting a vaccine causes autism.
Erik: Your reasoning is circular. You blame the MMR which was able to damage your child due to her being ‘compromised’ by thiomersal. Right.
Tell me something – if autistic people are bad excretors of mercury, why aren’t a lot of autistic people dead of mercury poisoning? Mercury is fatal in a large enough amount. As we are all continuously exposed to mercury, why aren’t the ‘bad excretors’ amongst us showing signs of extreme mercury poisoning or dead?
More from Times Online:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7-2118360,00.html
Not exactly blaming Wakefield (though I place quite a bit on the lawyer who paid him for his “research results”), but more on journalists who blew the “results” out of proportion.
And the discussion of thiomersal or thimerosal is still irrelevant to the MMR.
re: herpes in the MMR
This is the first I’ve ever heard of this sort of thing and I’d love to see a reference to this as I’m sure it was reported.
I’d also love to know how these live virus are being ID’ed, PCR?
Then I’d be interested in knowing who ID’ed the virus.
Kev wrote:
“To make it clear: the amount of thiomersal in vaccines is miniscule. The amount of mercury in the air is miniscule. At the dosage prescribed its simply not demonstrable that either breathing or injecting a vaccine causes autism”.
– Kev, do you have some peer-reviewed science which can accurately show me at which dosage INJECTING mercury (via thimerosal) into infants becomes unsafe? Certainly at some point it must be unsafe considering what we do know about thimerosal. Does that “dosage” issue account for preemies? Does it account for moms who eat/ate large quantities of fish? Does it account for babies who by virtue of bad luck or genetic differences are unable to process toxins in the same matter as others? Does your safe dosage theory account for all of those babies?
HN wrote:
“And the discussion of thiomersal or thimerosal is still irrelevant to the MMR”.
– The fact that HN continues to bring this up at every turn shows me that she really has no clue. The explanation has been given over and over again of how it is relevant to the discussion (thimerosal can screw with the immune system which in turn makes a mess when you inject a LIVE virus into the immune compromised baby). I’m not sure why HN can’t get it … it seems pretty clear to me.
p.s. By “clear to me” I mean the relevance factor, nothing more. I would have some respect for her if she made arguments about whether or not she believes it plays a part in autism or whatever but to not see how it is relevant is amazing to me.
SueM: “The fact that HN continues to bring this up at every turn shows me that she really has no clue.”
No.
It means that SueM either doesn’t not want to take it on board or doesn’t know how to take it on board.
Whichever way, the problem is SueM, not HN.
SueM: “I would have some respect for her if she made arguments about whether or not she believes it plays a part in autism or whatever but to not see how it is relevant is amazing to me.”
“It” being thimerosal, I take it.
Well, since thimerosal is not implicated in causing autism, it is hard to see how it *is* relevant to the aetiology of autism.
It’s a tautology, really.
The MMR is purely a UK issue, and in the UK the level of thiomersal was DIFFERENT than the USA. So a discussion of thiomersal in reference to Wakefield being paid by a lawyer to come up with specific research results to bolster a lawsuit (even to the point of _providing_ the test subjects) is just a diversion…
Or just shows that SueM does not have a clue (kind of like the NAA not checking to see which “Merck” provided funds for a researcher’s education… HINT: http://www.jmfund.org/about.html ).
David wrote:
“Whichever way, the problem is SueM, not HN”.
– Hey, ever since your plea to ignore me you seem to direct every comment towards me. What’s up with that? I keep waiting for the ignoring part to kick in… any time frame?
HN wrote:
“The MMR is purely a UK issue”.
– Really? Since when? I must have missed the memo.
SueM: “Hey, ever since your plea to ignore me you seem to direct every comment towards me. ”
I said this bit too, which you forgot to read, or for some reason weren’t able to read…. “Ah, sod the troll… let her dig her own “literary†grave like JBJr’s doing :)”
I like seeing you doing what can only be described as seriously desperate stuff to try and avoid coming clean about the fact that you really understand a total of *bugger all* about the whole issue under debate at this point.
It’s fun 😀
SueM: ” I must have missed the memo.”
Been missing a load, haven’t you? 🙂
There was another thread discussing the MMR and one of the topics we discussed was research being done by Dr. Krigsman regarding measles virus in the guts of autistic children. I initially heard that the study would be published this summer but today I came across a preliminary abstract for the study which I will post here.
IMFAR
Primary Author’s Institution/Affiliation
Wake Forest University School of Medicine
Abstract Title
PERSISTENT ILEAL MEASLES VIRUS IN A LARGE COHORT OF REGRESSIVE AUTISTIC
CHILDREN WITH ILEOCOLITIS AND LYMPHONODULAR HYPERPLASIA: REVISITATION
OF AN EARLIER STUDY
List of Authors
S. Walker, K. Hepner, J. Segal, A. Krigsman
Enter your abstract here
Background: Autistic enterocolitis, consisting of a nonspecific ileocolitis coupled with ileocolonic lymphonodular hyperplasia (LNH), was first introduced as a new, potentially virus-induced disease entity eight years ago in a group of ASD children with developmental regression.
Objectives: The primary objective of this study was to examine ileal biopsy tissue in a large cohort of pediatric patients who carry a diagnosis of regressive autism and whose chronic gastrointestinal symptoms warranted diagnostic endoscopic evaluation, for evidence of
measles virus RNA.
Methods: Patients who had been diagnosed with autism and who were referred to a pediatric gastroenterologist for evaluation of chronic GI symptoms were eligible to participate in this IRB approved study. For each patient, medical histories, vaccination records, histopathology
reports, and ileocolonoscopic biopsy tissue were available for evaluation. Terminal ileum (TI) biopsy tissue was assayed by RT-PCR for the presence of measles virus RNA and PCR-positive samples were sequenced.
Results: Medical and clinical data have been collected for >275 patients who fit the study inclusion criteria. PCR analysis on TI biopsy tissue from an initial 82 patients showed that 70 (85%) were positive for the F gene amplicon. Fourteen have been verified by DNA sequence and an additional 56 amplicons are being sequenced now. Work
is ongoing to assay the remaining specimens (~200) and to identify and assay relevant control tissue samples.
Conclusions: Preliminary results from this large cohort of pediatric autistic patients with chronic GI symptoms confirm earlier findings of measles virus RNA in the terminal ileum and support an association between measles virus and ileocolitis /LNH.
Sponsors: ARI; NAA; individual donations
David wrote:
” “Ah, sod the troll… let her dig her own “literary†grave like JBJr’s doing :)â€
– Yeah, I read that part too, just wasn’t sure which way you were leaning. It just goes to show how you can’t control your own thoughts… ignore her, no don’t… ignore her, no don’t. It’s ok, though, as for the “literary” grave… you are the one with some pretty shall we say “interesting” crazed rants to your name.
_”Kev, do you have some peer-reviewed science which can accurately show me at which dosage INJECTING mercury (via thimerosal) into infants becomes unsafe?”_
Er, no. Isn’t this what I’ve been asking _you_ for for the last few months?
You need to demonstrate not when thiomersal becomes unsafe but at what point (and how) it causes autism.
Kev wrote:
“Er, no. Isn’t this what I’ve been asking you for for the last few months”?
– I guess it again comes down to this: I want to know and be shown once and for all that a vaccine is safe and effective to be injected into my baby. Minimally, I want to know that the benefits outweigh the risks in an honest and open way. The way the vaccine schedule is now, it is not. As examples of foolish vaccination policies think Hep B vaccine and thimerosal containing flu vaccines. I guess you along with the other propoison pushers want to push the responsibility onto me to prove that they are dangerous. Well, ok, the problem is… in the meantime you can’t complain when the uptake rates go down for certain vaccines. People are smart and if you can’t prove safety, many are going to take the risks of not vaccinating (just being honest). As far as the herd is concerned… my herd is my family. I will do what is right for them and them alone.
“As far as the herd is concerned… my herd is my family. I will do what is right for them and them alone.”
Can your herd survive all by itself somewhere, or do you depend on fellow inhabitants of your locale for anything? I think if you actually may have a valid arugument, assuming you and you’re herd are living in an isolated area on the planet and not dependent on society for anything else at all.
The MMR combined vaccine has been used in the USA since the early 1970’s. This version was introduced into the UK in the early 1990’s after it was noted that the Urabe mumps strain used in the UK mumps vaccine was found to cause problems, so the MMR used now in the UK now has the Jeryl Lynn version for the mumps portion:
http://www.hpa.org.uk/infections/topics_az/mumps/gen_info.htm
The issue over a vaccine that had been used in another country for several years was prompted by a lawyer paying Wakefield to come up with specific test results to support a lawsuit. Even to the point of providing the test subjects, most of whom turned out to be the litigents.
This is an issue of a doctor (Wakefield) taking money to falsify data… the end result was a drop in immunity to mumps and measles in the UK. Which in turn has caused mumps and measles to return in force… causing preventable hospitalizations, disability and death:
http://nhsblogdoc.blogspot.com/2006/03/bad-news-from-doncaster.html
SueM not only missed the memo, but the whole issue over the last 8 years.