Dear Mr Wakefield,
Following your announcement of a link between the MMR vaccine and autism, uptake rates of this vaccine in the UK have fallen to amongst the lowest in Europe:
Take-up rates of the jab dropped throughout the UK, down to less than 70% in some areas, after a small-scale study published in The Lancet in 1998 by Dr Andrew Wakefield suggested a link to autism.
In 2004, mumps cases in the England and Wales rose from 4,204 in 2003 to 16,436 in 2004, nearly a four-fold increase.
And in the first month of 2005, there were nearly 5,000 cases. Most were among young adults born before 1988 and who would, therefore, not have been offered MMR as a child. In the second paper, Dr Ravindra Gupta, from London’s Guy’s and St Thomas’, working with colleagues from King’s College London, found cases have also occurring in very young children who would have been eligible for the MMR – measles, mumps and rubella – vaccine…..Dr Gupta (…) said uptake of MMR among two-year-olds in the UK fell from around 92% in early 1995 to around 80% in 2003/4.
In October 2004, experts predicted that due to falling vaccination uptake, the UK would start to suffer from ‘small outbreaks’:
The medical newspaper Pulse has warned that there could be a measles epidemic this winter on a scale last seen in the 1960s. It said that lowering levels of immunity meant as many as 12% of children and 20% of adults could be hospitalised if infected by measles.
And now, this year, 18 months after this warning, we have the UK’s first measles induced fatality in 14 years.
The 13-year-old who died last month lived in a travellers’ community. It is thought that he had a weakened immune system; he was being treated for a lung condition. The boy died of an infection of the central nervous system caused by a reaction to the measles virus. The Health Protection Agency described his death as shocking.
The Times also says that of the 72 reported measles cases last month, 9 required hospitalisation – this tallies almost exactly with the 2004 prediction of a hospitalisation rate of 12%.
I have a few questions for you Mr Wakefield.
Do you accept that there is a strong causative correlation between the falling MMR vaccine uptake and the rise in both mumps and measles? If you do not, could you please explain why not. If you do could you please explain what you feel is your role in these matters.
Is it true that, as reported by Brian Deer in the Times and in the Channel 4 current affairs programme ‘Dispatches’, that you received up to £55,000 to find scientific evidence of a link between MMR and autism and that you did not disclose you were being funded through solicitors seeking evidence to use against vaccine manufacturers?
Is it true that the vast majority of your subjects from the Lancet study were not, as you claimed, captured through the normal referral process, but actually supplied to you by lawyers representing these people and their families in vaccine litigation?
Is it true that up to nine months prior to the publication of your paper showing a link between the MMR vaccine and autism that you and the Royal Free (where you conducted your research) filed numerous patent applications which were alternatives to the MMR vaccine? If you did, would you consider it a lucky guess that led you to do this seeing as your MMR paper had yet to be published?
Do you believe, like your collaborator Hugh Fudenberg, that:
Some parents would rather see their kid die than live as a severely autistic.
These are serious matters Mr Wakefield. I’m aware that you are pursuing three court cases related to these matters (although at least one is currently stayed) and you are also due to be investigated by the GMC sometime this year but as the parent of an autistic child – in short exactly the sort of person you claim to want to help – I need answers now. What I read of you indicates wrong doing on a grand scale. If these things are established to be true you are guilty of not only extreme medical negligence but also of betraying thousands of parents and forcing thousands of autistic children to undergo totally unnecessary and highly invasive medical procedures.
You need to account for yourself Mr Wakefield. Please don’t wait for more children to be hospitalised or die.
Left Brain Right Brain 
Sue,
It is not possible to prove that a vaccine might just hurt you or your child. Of course I can’t prove that you will not have a seizure from the computer screen.
Your minimal request is just fine and can stand as is. However, a “schedule” can not be honest or dishonest; it is the information one is given that can be honest/dishonest. That is what is called an error of reification.
No research can show that, it just can show that it is less likely.
You write “People are smart and if you can’t prove safety, many are going to take the risks of not vaccinating (just being honest).”
Two sides to that coin; sure, they can be smart; they can also demonstrate the most excellent sort of stupidity.
You write “As far as the herd is concerned… my herd is my family. I will do what is right for them and them alone.”
Of course, and I doubt many folks would question your right to do so. However, whether those folks agree, that you using good judgment (shrugs) that is another story.
You wrote “I guess you along with the other propoison pushers want to push the responsibility onto me to prove that they are dangerous.”
(shrugs again) Fine, let me reverse your strawman with one of my own. “I guess Sue, like all the other pro-lawsuit pushers, wants to avoid responsibility for bad decision making on their part.”
See how easy that is, almost no real thought required. Since neither mine nor your statement actually reflects the arguments of those we attribute them to, they are both equivocal in that sense.
Dad wrote:
“Can your herd survive all by itself somewhere, or do you depend on fellow inhabitants of your locale for anything? I think if you actually may have a valid arugument, assuming you and you’re herd are living in an isolated area on the planet and not dependent on society for anything else at all”.
– No, my herd lives amongst you. Breathing the same toxic air as you, but not INJECTING it into our bodies 🙂 The problem is… there is no no one looking into this issue as they should be. Credibility is shot to hell. Until it improves my herd gets larger. That is “your” fault (propoison pushers) and not mine.
SueM: “Yeah, I read that part too, just wasn’t sure which way you were leaning. It just goes to show how you can’t control your own thoughts… ignore her, no don’t… ignore her, no don’t. It’s ok, though, as for the ‘literary’ grave… you are the one with some pretty shall we say ‘interesting’ crazed rants to your name.”
Um… At the time I wrote that message I had just seen Joseph’s message come up. So my thought was, “Well, stuff you, SueM… since you have no clue about anything and it shows in what you think you write here… let the troll carry on…” … since it is clear that you intend to make yourself look stupid (and, if I may say so, you do this with – if I may quote an Ian Anderson line at you – “conumate expertise”).
My so-called “interesting crazed rants” are nothing on JBJr’s examlpes of arsewipe mentality. And I suspect you know this to be true; certainly anyone else who follows this blog (and others) will know that JBJr’s obsession with my nether regions has made him a laughing stock for the whole world to see. Why you haven’t figured that his interest in my gonadal status is problematic is actually quite disturbing…. I mean, he’s thinking I want to send him photos of my bollocks, and I can tell you now, no fucker sees those unless they are female and in bed with me and in a relationship with me outside of familial stuff (JBJr can practice whatever shit he likes as long as he keeps it well out of my view, thank you very much!). As to JBJr’s sanity… he thinks that “Eli Lily invented autism”… I mean, come on… that is probably one of the most psychotic things I have ever heard, and you know what my training is. And you think *I’m* writing weirder stuff than your (probably) fuck-buddy, JBJr (and if you two aren’t “fuck-bugddies”, you should be, because you’re both about as psychotic as each other!)…. well… you have no grasp on reality at all.
Which is why, whenever you visit Kev’s blog here, you never have anythign to contribute to the discussion, and you always end up causing a ruckus when you come here.
Ever thought of leaving this place alone? We know you claim to have… but you’ve never been able to fulfil even *that* promise, have you?
You want to see “fucked up”, SueM… go look in a mirror near you… you’ll see plenty of it.
You’re one of the biggest loser here, SueM, and you are such a loser you can’t admit that you might even have been wrong on something…
That’s pathological, SueM… totally pathological. I’d want to die, if I were you. Thank fuck I’m not you!
Me: “fuck-bugddies†—- yeh… too happy typing away at you… *fuck buddies* is what I meant to type…. just so the pisswit-low-life-teacher-with-no-life-self doesn’t come out of you and say “you spelled that wrong” to me.
Typo is different from spelling error.
You ought to know that, but (from what I have seen) you don’t!
Heh heh heh…. you’re too easy, SueM!!!!!!!
SueM: “arugument”
See… I donät know why she thinks she can correct everybody’s spellings… she can’t even spell what she writes herself!
Pompous old cow!
Kev,
“You need to demonstrate not when thiomersal becomes unsafe but at what point (and how) it causes autism.”
If the AAP & CDC want to argue for keeping thimerosal in vaccines I think they ought to have safety studies with the chemical proving it to be harmless. Considering we’re talking about organic mercury this would seem a logical request.
HN,
“This is an issue of a doctor (Wakefield) taking money to falsify data”
The preliminary results from Krigsman’s study appear to confirm the findings of Wakefield.
David,
You are truly hilarious. I worry that you may blow a blood vessel with your silly rants. I suppose all your friends here will come out of the woodwork to defend you on these matters. Which is great to see, as it diminishes them as well. What would your clients or employers think of your foolishness? I can’t imagine but would love to find out. As for your “bollocks”, I have stayed far away from that whole scenario. It seems quite telling that you are the only one who keeps bringing it up at this point…
“donät”
SueM… don’t even think about commenting on that… I caught the typo.
_”propoison pushers”_
That makes me giggle every time I read it :o)
_”If the AAP & CDC want to argue for keeping thimerosal in vaccines I think they ought to have safety studies with the chemical proving it to be harmless. Considering we’re talking about organic mercury this would seem a logical request.”_
David, I addressed these points earlier to Sue – she blanked it as usual: Upthread.
You are going to have to post the link to the abstract of Krigman’s study… I checked http://www.pubmed.gov and could not find it. I got zilch for these searches”: “krigman[All Fields] AND ((“autistic disorder”[TIAB] NOT Medline[SB]) OR “autistic disorder”[MeSH Terms] OR autism[Text Word])” and “krigman[All Fields] AND mmr[All Fields]” and “krigman[All Fields] AND (“measles”[MeSH Terms] OR measles[Text Word])”. And the most recent paper for “Krigman virus” is this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10573064&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum
So if there really has been replication, it has not been published and reviewed. Until then, there has been no substantial verification of Wakefield’s study. We are not going go on some group’s just saying it has been done. Sorry.
Even if the lawyer was not involved, and had not provided the test subjects… it was not really a “study”, but just a dozen case studies.
Kev wrote:
“That makes me giggle every time I read it :o)”
– Good, I sort of like it too 🙂
Kev wrote:
“David, I addressed these points earlier to Sue – she blanked it as usual”.
– That’s it? That’s all you had to say about the fact that the ingredients in vaccines have not been proven safe to be injected into infants. Where’s your outrage? Where’s your blog entry devoted to it? Where’s your concern about chemicals being injected into babies who may not have the ability to excrete them? Where’s your concern for the children, Kev? I admire your sense of frustration with the chelation safety issues but here you fall WAY SHORT.
Kev,
“David, I addressed these points earlier to Sue – she blanked it as usual: Upthread.”
The link you provide that compares the death rate of smallpox vaccine to chelation is not really what I had in mind for a safety study involving thimerosal. There could be adverse side effects that don’t result in death. There is no clinical data to validate the use of ethyl mercury in vaccines. On the other hand, there are clinical studies that have shown very small amounts of thimerosal to potentially be very dangerous.
David wrote:
“donätâ€
SueM… don’t even think about commenting on that… I caught the typo”.
– Hey, I just thought it was some sort of Finnish equivalent to don’t 🙂
Typically, I don’t comment on spelling errors. Every once in awhile it is pretty easy and fun to do. Like, for example, when someone goes off on a big long rant about how THIMEROSEL is as safe as water and all the studies show it’s safe, blah, blah, blah… When someone over and over again spells the word wrong that they are trying to defend it says something about what they know about the topic. This happened here and I commented on it. It was funny. Then there was this funny exchange with Kev (he was trying to correct my spelling on projectile vomiting):
“project_ile_ vomitting Sue. No such things as project_ive_ vomitting I beleive”.
So, of course, I had to respond back in kind:
“Well, let’s see here. I made a typo on projectile vomiting. Did you also note that I added an extra “t†in vomiting? Oops, so did you. Oops, then I believe that you spelled believe wrong. Check that out”.
I mean, could I have let that slide, I guess… but it was funny, no? Maybe you just missed the humor.
“So if there really has been replication, it has not been published and reviewed. Until then, there has been no substantial verification of Wakefield’s study. We are not going go on some group’s just saying it has been done. Sorry.”
I’m trying to find a link to the abstract published online. I will post it when I find it.
“Even if the lawyer was not involved, and had not provided the test subjects… it was not really a “studyâ€, but just a dozen case studies.”
This is an interesting topic. Others might argue that case studies in rare events are extremely valuable.
SueM: “Hey, I just thought it was some sort of Finnish equivalent to don’t :)”
Vittu, että älä nyt! Perkele….
SueM: “Typically, I don’t comment on spelling errors.”
Wrong. Many have been pointed out by you, especially to Kev and to some others (who, like it or not, could be entirely honest in their assertsions of being dyslexic!).
SueM: “Did you also note that I added an extra “t†in vomiting?”
Um… maybe you don’t think about dyspraxics using keyboards… and what occasionally happens to us when we hit a key twice when we aim for once. Nice woman you must be. Taking the piss out of us like that!
SueM: “Maybe you just missed the humor.”
Nah… usually isn’t any within a mile of you.
Ehkä sie haluut etmie kirjottaisin pelkkä suomee, sitte sie et tarvis lukee sit, häh?
(the dialect, for anyone reading it, was Kymi).
#
_”That’s it? That’s all you had to say about the fact that the ingredients in vaccines have not been proven safe to be injected into infants. Where’s your outrage? Where’s your blog entry devoted to it? Where’s your concern about chemicals being injected into babies who may not have the ability to excrete them? Where’s your concern for the children, Kev? I admire your sense of frustration with the chelation safety issues but here you fall WAY SHORT.”_
I save my moral outrage for things worth getting outraged about. Ignorance, bigotry, manipulation.
Now, lets try again. Vaccines are statistically safe. If there are adverse effects – which no one denies – then they are resulting from a proven effective treatment. If we can find a way to eliminate these incredibly rare adverse effects then we should definitely do that.
Chelation is used on the _belief_ that autism is caused by thiomersal in vaccines. There is no safety data for its use on autistic kids and no eficacy data either. If there are adverse effects associated with its use – which there are – then what justification can be used for those adverse results? Belief?
How many billions of people all over the world have safely had vaccines? How many adverse effects have there been? If we can extropalate Prometheus’ figures across all vaccines and compare them to chelation (which also doesn’t just result in death, it also causes organ failure and various other things) I think the statistical risk of vaccines is pretty much miniscule. Certainly much less than that of chelation.
_”On the other hand, there are clinical studies that have shown very small amounts of thimerosal to potentially be very dangerous.”_
Key word: potentially. Meaning, not established. Or conjectured. I take it you’re referring to the Hornig mouse study?
None of this by the way, has anything at all to do with thiomersal (or MMR) causing autism.
David wrote:
“Um… maybe you don’t think about dyspraxics using keyboards… and what occasionally happens to us when we hit a key twice when we aim for once. Nice woman you must be. Taking the piss out of us like that”!
– David, you missed it. I, (Sue M), misspelled vomiting and then I pointed it out… so, if anything, I was “taking the piss out of myself” not anyone else… oh, forget it…
SueM: “so, if anything, I was “taking the piss out of myself†not anyone else… oh, forget it… ”
Oh really?
Could have flagged it. Most of us are used to you coming in here and trying to do it to us!
Not very sensitive to your judgment errors, are you?
*big grin*
*doesn’t give a shit*
*going to have a drink and work on his thesis now*
*had a good day today…. turns out that is practice model in psychology has some very cool benefits to his clients….*
“is” =>*h*is
it’s late, i’ve been at the computer for 7 hours.
going out.
David wrote:
“Oh really?
Could have flagged it. Most of us are used to you coming in here and trying to do it to us!
Not very sensitive to your judgment errors, are you”?
– I will try to be more sensitive in the future. Shame on me for not flagging my comments more appropriately 🙂
Good.
At least, good, if you mean that.
Did you read the bit of help-material I left you in a thread elsewhere on this blog?
David wrote:
“Did you read the bit of help-material I left you in a thread elsewhere on this blog”?
– Really, you left me some material to help? Let me see. Here’s what I’ve seen from you in this blog:
“Or maybe she’s just to stupid to grasp this point”.
“Whichever way, the problem is SueM, not HN”.
“Well, stuff you, SueM… since you have no clue about anything and it shows in what you think you write here… let the troll carry on…” .
“And you think I’m writing weirder stuff than your (probably) fuck-buddy, JBJr (and if you two aren’t “fuck-bugddiesâ€, you should be, because you’re both about as psychotic as each other!)…. well… you have no grasp on reality at all”.
“You want to see “fucked upâ€, SueM… go look in a mirror near you… you’ll see plenty of it”.
“You’re one of the biggest loser here, SueM, and you are such a loser you can’t admit that you might even have been wrong on something…”
That’s pathological, SueM… totally pathological. I’d want to die, if I were you. Thank fuck I’m not you”!
“Pompous old cow”!
So, that about sums up what you wrote to me. Was the “help” encoded somewhere in those comments? Possibly I missed it 🙂 Thanks for the laughs today!
SueM: ” Really, you left me some material to help? Let me see. Here’s what I’ve seen from you in this blog:…”
Yeh.
All she picks up on is what comes after… She actually ignored the really good stuff I left her.
But then, this is what we come to expect from SueM.
David wrote:
“All she picks up on is what comes after… She actually ignored the really good stuff I left her”.
– I’m supposed to look for helpful information from you? With that mouth of yours? You’ve got to be kidding me. It’s too bad that I had to miss the “really good stuff” that you left me. Maybe someone else can sort through your garbage to try to find it and get back to me 🙂 .
OKay…. seeing as I’m actually a nice person…. I went looking.
How come you didn’t see it when I posted it?
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending) : 1 month, 1 week ago
SueM: “My son was diagnosed with ‘sensory integration disorder’ which from what I can tell is quite possibly just a bogus ‘diagnosis’ of damage due to thimerosal.â€
Now she’s talking.
Sensory Integration Disorder is, indeed, listed as a dubious diagnosis (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/sid.html), and – according to Heilbroner – the whole thing may well be something relating to “neurodevelopmental immaturityâ€, and I refer SueM to this paragraph in particular:
quote: It should be remembered that most children develop and improve their behavior spontaneously. Given the fact that few (if any) adult patients have sensory integration disorder, it is reasonable to question whether costly interventions are really necessary for what is a most likely a self-limiting problem of neurodevelopmental immaturity and anxiety. I also believe that children or families whose behavioral or anxiety disorders could benefit treatment would be better off seeking standard treatment than wasting time and money on unproven or irrational approaches.*endquote*
Seriously, SueM… you may well wish to think that paragraph over. As to the thimerosal connection, personally I am not convinced of one, and I would quite honestly say that – if you feel that there is an autism diagnosis that could be made for your son – then you need to collect evidence to support that diagnosis and present it to a clinician pretty systematically in order for the characteristics to stand out correctly to that person. Again, I can’t see anything evidential of thimerosal poisoning in the autism thing; but here I am speaking specifically about the autism issues and your dissatisfaction at the “SID†dx (which I must confess I would be unhappy about for my own daughter).
was on this thread…. http://www.kevinleitch.co.uk/wp/?p=329
David wrote:
“OKay…. seeing as I’m actually a nice person…. I went looking.
How come you didn’t see it when I posted it”?
– I saw it, David. It was also 5 weeks ago… I was supposed to remember that 5 weeks ago you actually posted something to me that didn’t contain the word f*ck every other sentence? Come on. Now, having said that, I agree with your analysis that SID is basically a bogus (dubious) diagnosis. As for this comment that you posted:
“I also believe that children or families whose behavioral or anxiety disorders could benefit treatment would be better off seeking standard treatment than wasting time and money on unproven or irrational approaches”.
– It is interesting. I’m not sure what they consider unproven or irrational approaches. For my son, GF/CF diet worked wonders. A touch of probiotics to help with bacteria also helped. Today, he’s doing great. Thank you for your suggestions but no need for anymore “treatment” for him. Also, make a note his “sensory issues” began coincidentally approximately 3 weeks or so after a thimerosal containing flu vaccine. Never before that had he had any issues with tags on his clothes, never issues before with textures of food, never before did he hold his ears screaming when the tv was on (too loud, too loud), never before did he cower in the corner of the room because voices were too loud, never before did he become bothered by too many people, etc. It was probably just a coincidence though. Maybe he developed an “anxiety disorder” after that visit to the ped’s for his shot… it couldn’t be the mercury… no way.
_”it couldn’t be the mercury… no way.”_
Have you any idea of how utterly boring it is to hear you spout the same thing time after time? Let me reiterate – _again_ – what we’ve _all_ told you so many times it makes my head spin:
Yes, you’re right – it could be mercury. So go ahead and prove it. If you can’t, or its unprovable then guess what? _It probably wasn’t the mercury_ . At some point Sue you are going to have to deal with that scenario.
I can’t think of one single person on ‘my’ side of the debate who hasn’t stated they are happy to follow where the science leads them. To put it more plainly, if its firmly established mercury causes autism (or whatever illness you want to attribute it to this week) then as long as the science is valid, replicated etc we’ll _have_ to believe it. This is because we are open to that possibility as people who recognise the legitimacy of decent science. Its also the reason I changed my mind before about what I thought ’caused’ my daughters autism. An open mind. An ability to reexamine the evidence. An ability to listen to _all_ sides.
Conversely, the only person from ‘your’ side I’ve ever seen address the issue of what happens as the thiomersal research fails to proceed is David Kirby. And he lied. He said the autism/thiomersal theory would undergo a severe setback if autism rates didn’t drop by the end of 2005. When they didn’t (according to _his_ criteria) he decided he actually meant 2007. For no apparent reason.
What about you Sue? When do you think is a good time to move on to other research areas? What piece of evidence would convince you that thiomersal in vaccines does not cause autism?
I said, “What exactly is “herd immunityâ€?
And Bonni said, “What exactly is “Googleâ€?”
Well Bonni, I googled “herd immunity” like you sarcasticly implied and I came up with this little video that makes no sense at all and neither does the theory of “herd immunity”!
In the video they state, even if there is an immunisation programme, if enough people are left unvaccinated, the germ can still infect those who arent protected.
What the??? That doesn’t make any sense at all!
That leads me to this Google search result? If vaccinations really work, those vaccinated will be immune to the disease, so what does it matter if some people choose to go unvaccinated? What do the vaccinated have to worry about? Aren’t they protected? Shouldn’t people have the choice whether or not to have their children vaccinated–a choice based on full disclosure of risks and benefits?
As previously stated above by the NHS in the U.K. “if enough people are left unvaccinated, the germ can still infect those who arent protected.
Kevin Leitch, the two links that you sent me to were Wikipedia and a Pubmed study about “influenzae type b vaccine prevents H. influenzae type b meningitis very effectively (99.4%) in children vaccinated twice or more”.
Kev, you told me a while back that Wikipedia is not a reliable source because anyone can post information on Wikipedia and the Pubmed study you sent me to only mentions “herd immunity”, it does not prove that there is such a thing as “herd immunitty”!
I ask all of you again, can you prove that such a thing as ” Herd Immunity” really exists???
_”Kev, you told me a while back that Wikipedia is not a reliable source because anyone can post information on Wikipedia and the Pubmed study you sent me to only mentions “herd immunityâ€, it does not prove that there is such a thing as “herd immunittyâ€!”_
I don’t believe I said it was unreliable, I think I said one had to be careful based on the reasons you outline.
I’m at a loss at how one can conclusively prove herd immunity as its an abstract concept. Its like trying to prove religion. All one can do is demonstrate (as per the second link) the effects when a population is said to achieve herd immunity.
Sue M.,
Let me ask you this. What if your child’s “sensory issues” started four weeks after a thimerosal-containing flu vaccine? Or five weeks? Or three months?
At what point do you consider the possibility that one had nothing to do with the other?
It’s fascinating – some people talk about how their kids started “regressing” or “having problems” days after getting vaccinated. Some say it’s weeks. Some even say it’s months. The only common thread is that they all blame the vaccine, as if there’s no other possible explanation or if the vaccine was just a coincidental event.
Uhm, I already did the Google thing, first time I heard the phrase “herd immunity”. I was intrigued and started to read, both pro and con, and considerable amounts.
My point was actually that if people want to know, they can actually look it up for themselves. It’s not rocket science. Hell, it’s not even computer science.
Here is a link to the Krigsman abstract that I posted here yesterday:
http://www.cevs.ucdavis.edu/Cofred/Public/Aca/WebSec.cfm?confid=238&webid=1245
Then scroll down to presentation PS3.30 or just search the page for “Krigsman” to find it.
EDIT: I edited the malformed URL. Not your fault David, my blog software mangled it – Kev.
Kev,
No problem on the edit. I was actually very surprised to see all of the abstracts on that site I just linked to. Seems like IMFAR is having an extremely large autism conference in June.
“I’m at a loss at how one can conclusively prove herd immunity as its an abstract concept. Its like trying to prove religion. All one can do is demonstrate (as per the second link) the effects when a population is said to achieve herd immunity.”
It’s not abstract, and it can be evaluated with mathematical models. It refers directly to the percentage of a population vaccinated vs. non-vaccinated, at which propagation is hindered for a specific infectious disease. Example
I was only commenting on the abstract vs. not abstract. As far as conclusive proof, that could be an ethical challenge (requiring purposeful illness or worse).
My point was actually that if people want to know, they can actually look it up for themselves. It’s not rocket science. Hell, it’s not even computer science.
Hell, it’s not even science at all.
You don’t consider statistical analysis or math science?
If KC can’t accept maths or statistics as science then I dunno where he went to college, but I’d suggest you should find out where— and then ban your kid from ever going there!
Maybe KC got a degree from El Bagga Di Shite College, University of Nowhere-Important.
I dunno. I don’t actually care. I am concerned that someone who doesn’t know what is involved in science purports to be able to comment in it! What a waste….
SueM: “With that mouth of yours?”
You’d be surprised what sense can come out of my mouth.
Really.
D of C said,
“You don’t consider statistical analysis or math science?”
I do consider statistical analysis and math as science, but in my opinion they don’t prove “herd immunity”. I am sick of the “herd immunity” excuse when people want to have a choice about vaccines and not a government mandate. I think it should be up to the individual.
If you are vaccinated then you have nothing to worry about being around people that aren’t. If vaccines really work, then you’re protected.
What is the “herd” going to do now that the bird flu has hit the U.K.? Are they going to over react and mandate that everyone get vaccinated? Most likely with thimerosal containing flu vaccines?
Marc Girard, M.D., M.Sc.-
Specialists are currently challenging WHO for turning a veterinary issue (Avian Bird Flu) into a medical one and thereby preventing national agencies from taking appropriate measures concerning animals, which probably would have been far more efficient in limiting the spread of epidemics.
Measles outbreak affects children –
Eighteen cases of measles have been confirmed and a further 19 are suspected in an area of South Yorkshire, it has emerged. Some are too young to be immunised.
None of them died.
A Secret Government Report Reveals 18 Child Deaths Following Vaccinations –
Eighteen babies and toddlers have died following childhood vaccinations in just four years, a secret Government report reveals.
Four deaths have been linked to suspected adverse reactions to the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) triple jab, according to documents prepared for the Government’s expert advisers on immunisation.
I wonder why that report was kept secret?
18 deaths for the vaccinated …18 cases of measles for the unvaccinated and no deaths. So did those 18 die so we could achieve this unproven “herd immunity”?
I guess they just took one for the team?
Erik Nanstiel,
I’d like to reiterate Bartholomew Cubbins’ question –
You say “…we found Measles, Rubella and Herpes viruses in my daughter’s inflamed intestines. The Herpes was likely due to a contaminated MMR vaccine.”
Who is “we” and how did “we” come to those conclusions? Are you sure that the strains of measles and rubella viruses are those found in the MMR jab your daughter received – if so, how was that determined?
Given that there are at least 8 different herpes viruses, did you happen to find out which one it was? And, since herpes viruses are endemic in the population (and highly contagious), how did you determine that this herpes virus came from the MMR jab?
These are all important questions. Normally, I wouldn’t dream of asking someone about the medical matters of a family member, but since you brought it up…
Prometheus
Hell, it’s not even science at all.
Lot of that going around.
Mouse wrote:
“At what point do you consider the possibility that one had nothing to do with the other”?
– Fair question. I suppose if there were some sort of “clinical” safety tests of thimerosal which showed no problems with injecting mercury into babies, that might help. Of course, you will never find that. Tell the CDC to grab a petri dish and add some living cells to it with a few drops of thimerosal and see what happens? Over simplification of course, but you get the point… Also, the sheer volume of “coincidences” found by thousands upon thousands of parents. I must give more credibility to parental concerns and knowledge about their own children than you do, Mouse.
Sue,
Ok, then by your logic, anything that happens around the time of autism manifestation has the possibility of being the root cause until proven otherwise. I could argue that car seats cause autism using that line of thinking, and I would put the onus on you to prove me wrong.
Asking someone to prove a negative (“show me that thimerosal can’t cause autism”) is a logical fallacy.
I must give more credibility to parental concerns and knowledge about their own children than you do, Mouse.
What’s funny about that is that MOST parents of autistic children don’t equate vaccines with autism, even when confronted with the evidence of your experts. Only a small handful would consider treatments like chelation.
Not that I support the idea of groupthink, but don’t you find it the least bit interesting that MOST parents and MOST scientists don’t believe vaccines have anything to do with autism? And no, you can’t assume that these parents or scientists are just the “ignorant” ones either.
Mouse wrote:
“I could argue that car seats cause autism using that line of thinking, and I would put the onus on you to prove me wrong”.
– I always find these sort of analogies comical. First of all, do I need to remind you that sitting in a car seat is somewhat different than injecting a toxic substance into a baby with an under developed immune system? Can you see how your analogy falls somewhat short? This is like the time when Clone (I think it was) linked to some MSDS for King’s play sand where it stated that it could be dangerous for some reason, blah, blah, blah. Which was well and good until I reminded him that the last time I checked, King’s play sand was NOT going to be INJECTED into babies at any time soon. I think that I asked him to get back to me if he heard otherwise. He hasn’t responded the last I checked 🙂
Mouse wrote:
“And no, you can’t assume that these parents or scientists are just the “ignorant†ones either”.
– No, I wouldn’t assume that they are just the ignorant ones. In fact, I imagine that there are plenty of children who are out there in which vaccines have not played a major role. There are other factors involved. I DO believe that in MANY cases vaccines did and do play a role… On another note, as for many parents, they believe their doctors. They believe the “so-called science”. They believe the Offit’s of the world. As for the scientists, show me a scientist (not epidemiology) who has worked clinically with mercury or thimerosal who does not believe that it is or could be toxic to the human body… Show me just one and I will be happy. The question is, what are the possible consequences of this toxic substance being injected into infants? That’s where we are now. Moving forward….
_”Which was well and good until I reminded him that the last time I checked, King’s play sand was NOT going to be INJECTED into babies at any time soon.”_
What difference does injection make? Are you saying that the _only_ way to be mercury poisoned is via injection? If so, how do you account for the presence of autism before 1931? If not then whats wrong with the sand analogy? But here’s a medical one – you can inhale heroin. Inhale enough it’ll kill you. You can inhale Anthrax. That’ll kill you immediately. You seem to be intimating that the process of injection is just as dangerous as the thing being injected.
_”No, I wouldn’t assume that they are just the ignorant ones. In fact, I imagine that there are plenty of children who are out there in which vaccines have not played a major role. There are other factors involved. I DO believe that in MANY cases vaccines did and do play a role… On another note, as for many parents, they believe their doctors. They believe the “so-called scienceâ€. They believe the Offit’s of the world.”_
In percentage terms Sue, you and your fellow cultists account for around 7% of the total autism population. Thats because most people are intelligent enough to see past hype, marketing and fear-mongering.
_”As for the scientists, show me a scientist (not epidemiology) who has worked clinically with mercury or thimerosal who does not believe that it is or could be toxic to the human body… Show me just one and I will be happy.”_
And the point of that would be…..what? How about one who believes it causes autism?
_”The question is, what are the possible consequences of this toxic substance being injected into infants? That’s where we are now. Moving forward….”_
We seem to have been standing still on that score for quite some time Sue. Where are all these studies demonstrating the consequences? Are they coming in ‘the next few months’ maybe?
“Also, the sheer volume of “coincidences†found by thousands upon thousands of parents.”
Ah, the good old fallacious appeal to popularity. Lot’s o people seen it, there must be something to it! Watch out for UFO’s, ghosts, and beware the powerful psychics Sue.