In their continuing quest to establish MMR as evil in a syringe, the Daily Mail are turning increasingly to more and more blatant strawman fallacies.
In a recent article entitled *’We won’t allow MMR cover-up say parents of tragic toddlers’* , the Daily Mail reach new lows of journalism.
The parents of two healthy toddlers who died ten days after being given the controversial MMR jabs have warned the Government that they will not allow the cause of their deaths to be ‘covered up’.
Firstly, lets note that nowhere in any article I’ve read has the UK government attempted to ‘cover up’ the deaths of these two toddlers. The Daily Mail are inventing a conspiracy where none appears to exist. This will of course allow them to turn round when MMR is established _not_ to be the cause of death and scream ‘cover up!’ and ‘conspiracy!’ and ‘we told you so!’.
Lets further note that the MMR jab is only controversial to Daily Mail and Private Eye readers. I read a *lot* of non autism related, non vaccine related message boards/forums/newsgroups and whenever the issue comes up virtually nobody really believes the MMR causes autism, or is in any way ‘controversial’.
Doctors say they cannot explain why George Fisher and Anna Duncan, both aged 17 months, died in their sleep. But the children’s parents believe that the controversial triple jab – against measles, mumps and rubella – is to blame.
If this is a cover up then those Doc’s are really bad it it. Note that they’re being entirely honest and claiming that they cannot explain why these two kids died. Hell, they’re not even claiming the MMR _didn’t_ cause their deaths. I also note however, that no actual Doctors – and certainly not the Doctors who said they ‘couldn’t explain’ the deaths – are interviewed or quoted anywhere in this piece.
George’s mother, Sarah, said last week that despite repeated Government assurances the vaccine is safe,she and her husband were ‘100 per cent sure George was killed by MMR’.
Based on what?
The only indications of ill-health before the children died were that both showed signs of apparently minor reactions to their MMR jabs.
Minor reactions. My daughter had a reaction to her DTP – vomiting, fever – we panicked and took her to A&E where her fever settled almost immediately. At the time we were ‘100% sure’ that the DTP jab caused/triggered her autism but we’re not any more. Her reaction was, relatively speaking, fairly innocuous and it sounds liek these two kids reactions were too. Minor reactions don’t lead to death.
And Anna’s father, John, said he and his wife would ‘never forgive themselves’ for not paying privately for single jabs and for believing Government assurances that MMR was safe. _They now believe that the doctors should have spotted and warned of the dangers_. Mr Duncan said that, having conducted extensive research since Anna’s death, he and his wife, who is a nurse, considered it possible that their daughter had died ‘as a result of a catastrophic reaction to the vaccine’. He said: ‘Six days after her jab, Anna developed purple spots on her body and bouts of high temperature. ‘_We read only later that these were side-effects of MMR to watch out for. ‘If we had been properly warned we would have taken her for medical help sooner. But the risks of vaccines are just never mentioned. ‘Anna had been exposed to an outbreak of chickenpox in our village just before her jab, which we mentioned, and had a runny nose, which means she really shouldn’t have been injected with MMR at that point._ ‘Parents should be better informed about the risks and the choice of single jabs should be available to all parents through the NHS.’
So now we get to the meat of the matter. Despite the Mail doing their best to muddy the time line it now seems that this child was ill prior to receiving her MMR, which they didn’t know was something to look out for despite this information being freely available on the NHS Direct website, they then let her have the MMR which she had a minor reaction to nearly a week after the injection (which is also noted and discussed at NHSDirect) and she then tragically died. Her parents then decided that this previously categorised ‘minor reaction’ was in actual fact a ‘catastrophic reaction’ and that it was the Governments fault for engendering a conspiracy of silence over the MMR.
The idea of a government conspiracy to keep the potential dangers of the MMR vaccine quiet is fallacious in the extreme given that the information exists on the leading healthcare website in the UK. Its not even hard to find – simply go to the home page and type ‘MMR’ into the search engine.
Its also fallacious, given the time line established to claim that the MMR is at fault here. Medical wisdom is clear that vaccines should not be given to kids who have been ill. If her parents didn’t tell the person administering the vaccine this fact then they bear part of the responsibility. If they _did_ tell the administering nurse she’d been ill then the Practice concerned should be held accountable and punished.
The MMR is not at fault here. The issue is that an illness that could trigger a bad reaction was not identified prior to administering the MMR.
This is not the first time (and I’m sure it won’t be the last) that the Daily Mail attempt to seriously mislead people over the MMR vaccine. They have lost all sense of responsibility over the issue, mainly because they have invested so much time and ink into the matter. With breathtaking arrogance and irresponsibility, the end of this article, states that:
The failure of the Government’s campaign was demonstrated last week when figures showed that because so many parents are spurning MMR, Britain is now in the grip of the biggest measles outbreak since the vaccine’s introduction in 1988.
Has the government campaign failed? Probably. They did a poor job at getting the truth out but lets not pretend that rags like the Mail didn’t play a significant part in causing this measles outbreak. They share the responsibility. Its time for them to grow up and stop jumping at shadows.
Left Brain Right Brain 
It’s a terrible thing, what has happened to these poor children. I can understand that their parents, enraged by grief, are looking for something, anything to blame. Blaming the MMR makes no sense at all, but they can’t be thinking clearly right now. The Daily Mail have been even more irresponsible and disgusting than normal to print this and stir this up. The journalists are not in a fragile state, they just want to use any excuse to continue their ‘crusade’ against the MMR to sell newspapers. It’s awful, to put profit before morals, like this.
Thanks for bring this to our attention. I really wish you didn’t have to…
The government has paid out for MMR deaths, yet insists MMR is safe. That is a cover-up in my book unless you figure death is safe? In fact the figure touted is about 26 deaths, and I think they have paid out for 3 deaths, and given that only 1-5% of vaccine reactions get reported then that 26 figure wouldn’t be far wrong.
I don’t know whey you have to believe in MMR, I can’t find any evidence measles vaccination eliminated deaths, as deaths had declined by 99.4% before vaccination, and they have had for 50 years a safe non toxic cure for measles that would prevent all deaths–Vitamin C. Secondly homeopathy believes measles is a necessary process of the immune system, and naturopathy says it is the immune system eliminating toxins, and they haven’t done any research to disprove them, so MMR vaccination is an experiment, more so when they have only mapped 10% of the immune system, less for babies.
So they suppressed knowledge of MMR deaths (do you recall the withdrawn MMR vaccine–was that an example of safe?), suppressed use of one measles cure, for starters, not forgetting vitamin A cure–and MMR depletes vitamin A.
Also you will find measles deaths are in children who are ill or on immune depleting drugs, many under the age of vaccination, and over 50% had been vaccinated, assuming you can get any data from the government, which is unlikely.
Measles is a safe disease (see quotes) if handled properly, and with Vitamin use, and the vaccine never eliminated measles deaths, and the disease primes your immune system.
An epidemic of autism (plus diabetes, asthma etc) from mercury vaccines and MMR is a huge price to pay for nothing in return.
john
“Under normal conditions, healthy children do not die from or become disabled from the complications of measles and if they do, questions should be asked about their management.” —Jayne Donegan MB
“I have myself, through Natural Hygiene, over 16 years, treated all forms and hundreds of cases of typhus and typhoid fevers, pneumonia’s, measles and dysentery’s, and have not lost a single patient. The same is true of scarlet and other fevers. No medicine whatever was given”.–Dr Trall, 1860.
An epidemic of autism (plus diabetes, asthma etc) from mercury vaccines and MMR is a huge price to pay for nothing in return.
Let me point out the obvious here. There’s no evidence for the first part of your statement. Oh, and there’s plenty of evidence against the second part. Thanks for stopping by.
There isn’t any evidence if you only look where the medical industry points the torch, and believe what they say, they haven’t proven it is safe, all their studies have been taken apart, and it is suspicious they only do Epidemiology studies which are a greatw ay to fool people and aren’t a valid source of data in court:
” the US Federal Judicial Centre Reference Manual on Scientific Evidence, Second Edition, makes abundantly clear that epidemiology is not acceptable to prove there is no causal link between an adverse event and a pharmaceutical . ”
while the man who is actually studying the children gets driven out of the country.
And you have to believe anecdotes don’t count, so 5,000 parents (minimum) can be ignored.
Dr Peter Fletcher, after agreeing to be an expert witness on drug-safety trials for parents’ lawyers, he had received and studied thousands of documents relating to the case which he believed the public had a right to see. He said he has seen a “steady accumulation of evidence” from scientists worldwide that the measles, mumps and rubella jab is causing brain damage in certain children.
And the world’s leading Independent autism expert, Dr Rimland, who advised on the film Rainman:
“The evidence that vaccines are a major cause of the increase comes from a number of directions. One direction that’s been largely ignored are the laboratory studies. There are at least seven laboratory studies, clinical studies, of blood, cerebral, spinal fluid, biopsies of autistic children which show huge differences between autistic children and normal children in terms of the presence of things like measles vaccine virus in their intestinal tract, for example, or their neurons. So, there’s one line of evidence. Another, of course, is that we have data from thousands of parents who testify, often with videotapes and photographs and eyewitness reports, that their kid was perfectly normal. And they can demonstrate it, as I say, very conclusively with tapes until after the vaccine. The kid retreated into autism. There’s just converging evidence from many, many directions.”– (Nov 2002) Bernard Rimland PhD
john: “Measles is a safe disease (see quotes) if handled properly…”
I’m sure the dead child’s parents would thank you for that information.
Not.
Just seen where john gets his info: http://www.vaccination.org.uk/
Jayne Donegan MB BS (Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery for those not acquainted with the abbreviations) is one of the medics listed there… along with those good lads, the Geiers! Heh…. and we are supposed to think that Donegan is a reputable authority?
I think not….
You medical people have to believe all that because you believe in vaccination, which props up Allopathy. If people knew the facts about smallpox vaccination, for example, the whole Castle of Allopathy would collapse as it rests on the lie that it has saved millions of lives, but any casual research into smallpox vaccination would show it killed millions, and never prevented one single case of smallpox, over 90% of the victims in epidemics had been vaccinated, and thos huge epidemics were caused by vaccination. Fact.
You tell that mother her child’s life could have been saved by Vitamin C, and vaccination is completely unecessary, even if it did save lives, which it never did.
“Many viral infectious diseases have been cured and can continue to be cured by the proper administration of Vitamin C. Yes, the vaccinations for these treatable infectious diseases are completely unnecessary when one has the access to proper treatment with vitamin C. And, yes, all the side effects of vaccinations…are also completely unnecessary since the vaccinations do not have to be given in the first place with the availability of properly dosed vitamin C.”—Dr Thomas Levy M.D., J.D. (Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases and Toxins p30)
If you fear measles (no one feared it in my childhood, the 50’s) then let the naturopaths, homeopaths, and nutritional doctors like Levy take over.
That child was on drugs for a lung condition, and over 50% of measles deaths in the past were caused by the drugs they were on, eg for leukemia.
dr kalokerinos will show you how to practice good medicine http://www.whale.to/vaccines/kalokerinos.html
Like Dr Klenner http://www.whale.to/m/klenner.html
And if can find any experts to support your position who don’t take money from vaccine companies or aren’t vaccinators (allopaths)?
cheers
john
Look like we gots ourselves a real live anti-vaxxer.
If inoculation with vaccinia virus had failed to produce protective immunity in humans there’d be no modern vaccines and you’d have to find another hobby.
If you fear measles (no one feared it in my childhood, the 50’s) then let the naturopaths, homeopaths, and nutritional doctors like Levy take over.
“No one” feared the measles in the 50s? Rubbish. Since my own mother was very much alive in the 50s and had a family member with a particularly bad case of the measles, I can speak with certainty that she did, most definitely fear the measles as did her parents and other siblings.
I do appreciate the links to whale.to, though because I’d no idea that aspartame was the root of all evil…I wonder why no one’s asking if the children were exposed to that “witches brew of toxicity”.
Hey Zeus is my homeboy said: “he cites whale.to as a source of science”
This John sounds like the webmaster of Whale.to… the one who describes how to heal “black lines” on usenet.
Pay him no mind.
Though you may want to wander to:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=58530 … to see a great spoof based on a Dylon song!
_”The government has paid out for MMR deaths, yet insists MMR is safe. That is a cover-up in my book unless you figure death is safe?”_
So its a cover up when the Government accepts wrongdoing by paying out?
_”In fact the figure touted is about 26 deaths, and I think they have paid out for 3 deaths,”_
Touted by whom? Where’s the source for these figures?
_”So they suppressed knowledge of MMR deaths (do you recall the withdrawn MMR vaccine—was that an example of safe?), suppressed use of one measles cure, for starters, not forgetting vitamin A cure—and MMR depletes vitamin A.”_
So they tried to cover up a non-working vaccine by withdrawing it? Excuse me for pointing out the obvious but that’s damn poor tactics for a conspiracy. ‘They’ then go on to suppress Vitamin A? Which is weird because its both naturally occurring and available from Boots in tablet form.
_”Also you will find measles deaths are in children who are ill or on immune depleting drugs, many under the age of vaccination, and over 50% had been vaccinated, assuming you can get any data from the government, which is unlikely.”_
So you have no data but assert these things anyway? How did the knowledge come to you? Osmosis?
_”Measles is a safe disease (see quotes) if handled properly, and with Vitamin use”_
What utter rubbish. Not only are you a fully fledged conspiracy kook, you’re an ignorant one too.
_”An epidemic of autism (plus diabetes, asthma etc) from mercury vaccines and MMR is a huge price to pay for nothing in return.”_
What epidemic?
When you reply, use science not wild-eyed conjecture. Quote scientists not quacks on personal home pages or anti-semitic conspiracy theory sites.
It is simply not possible for injected live virus vaccines to be dangerous for anyone! Everyone should get the MMR, regardless of any coincidence of timing of onset of ASD. If the MMR is not considered a risk for 75%-85% of people, then we all must do what we are told is best by those who are told by those who are influenced by the companies who fund the studies. After all, statistics tell the truth 99% of the time, right? ASD is rare, right? The immune system of a 12-18 month old understood in complete detail at this time, and I trust our current technology will never be criticized by school textbooks at any time in the future. 😉
The above from ‘nobody’ is a great example of the strawman argument I was talking about,
_”It is simply not possible for injected live virus vaccines to be dangerous for anyone!”_
Strawman No.1: Nobody claims that.
_”Everyone should get the MMR”_
Strawman No.2: Nobody says that.
_”regardless of any coincidence of timing of onset of ASD.”_
I agree its a coincidence.
_”If the MMR is not considered a risk for 75%-85% of people, then we all must do what we are told is best by those who are told by those who are influenced by the companies who fund the studies.”_
So if I understand you, you’re saying that anyone who produces science that supports your opinion is good and all other science is bad? Is that right?
_”ASD is rare, right?”_
At a rate of just over half of one percent I’d say its pretty rare, yes. It also seems stable internationally and at a very similar rate internationally.
_”The immune system of a 12-18 month old understood in complete detail at this time, and I trust our current technology will never be criticized by school textbooks at any time in the future. ;)”_
Strawman No. 3: Nobody claims this.
I’m sorry. I seem to have forgotten that autism is genetic and that sarcasism is not undrstood by people with asd. 😉
You seem to have forgotten how to make a point.
Does anyone know for sure if there are any delayed reactions to the mmr?
The information revealed in the time frame requred for the safety studies were ” mild and rare.”
What were the required time frames for the original studies. I seem to forget. 😉 Does the time frame even matter when an attenuated live virus is concerned? You tell me.
Can you please explain the genetics of live viruses?
Why was the schedule changed from 15-18 months to 12 months not long ago. I cannot seem to understand. 😉
.
elementary school stuff….
http://student.ccbcmd.edu/courses/bio141/lecguide/unit2/viruses/viralgenetics/viralgenhivlc.html
_”Does anyone know for sure if there are any delayed reactions to the mmr?”_
Depends on your definition of delayed.
_”What were the required time frames for the original studies. I seem to forget. 😉 Does the time frame even matter when an attenuated live virus is concerned? You tell me.”_
28 days. Why would you ask about the time frame and then go on to ask if it matters? You tell me.
_”Can you please explain the genetics of live viruses?”_
Nope.
_”Why was the schedule changed from 15-18 months to 12 months not long ago. I cannot seem to understand. ;)”_
Because it would do no harm to do so and because there seems to be good indications that closely integrating vaccines of varying types makes them work better.
The schedule change was actually modelled on the US system of 12-15 months from what I can tell.
General reading.
Now, how about you stop with the supercilious smirking and make your point.
Measles deaths declined by 99.4% before vaccination. End of story. You vaccine zealots are worshiping a false idol, bit like Moloch in its effects:
“Another Parliamentary return (No. 443, Session 1877) demonstrates that 25,000 babies are yearly sacrificed by diseases excited by Vaccination.” International Anti-Vaccination League points against vaccination 1880 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Anti-Vaccination_League
Can’t you worship something useful?
“Daily Mail and Private Eye readers. I read a lot of non autism related, non vaccine related message boards/forums/newsgroups and whenever the issue comes up virtually nobody really believes the MMR causes autism, or is in any way ‘controversial’.”
You must be living in a very small reality bubble created, no doubt, by your own belief it is safe. Try Evidence of Harm email discussion. Now over 1,100 subscribers. Or 3 vaccine discussion forums I know. Numbers don’t mean anything, it is appeal to the majority fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_majority
Try going round the 5,000-10,000 families logged into the US court system for MMR damage.
The media, Private Eye and the Mail are both pro-vaccine, you should consider yourself lucky there aren’t any anti-vaccine news outlets to wake you out of your reality bubble. In fact the Mail is the main fearmongering organ for the vaccine industry, and the last media investigation into a childhood vaccine, DPT, was in 1984 by a provincial US paper the Fresno Bee. God knows how you would cope with reading the output of the NVIC and similar outfits, try some http://www.whale.to/m/fisher9.html
_”Measles deaths declined by 99.4% before vaccination. End of story.”_
Your source for that being…?
_”You must be living in a very small reality bubble created, no doubt, by your own belief it is safe.”_
Here’s a small experiment for you: go to a mainstream non-autism, non-vaccine related message board and post about the evils of vaccines. See what responses you get.
_”Try Evidence of Harm email discussion. Now over 1,100 subscribers. Or 3 vaccine discussion forums I know. Numbers don’t mean anything, it is appeal to the majority fallacy”_
Oh I _see_ , so comparing a totally independant forum with dedicated antivax forums is a reliable measure?
I didn’t claim any _knowledge_ – I said, in my experience, in non-autism, non-vaccine related fori, people were sceptical of the kind of wing-nuttery you promote.
_”try some http://www.whale.to/m/fisher9.html“_
Thanks, I’ll pass. I don’t read anti-semitic quackery.
“Measles deaths declined by 99.4% before vaccination. End of story.â€
>Your source for that being…?
Twentieth Century Mortality CD, Office of National Statistics http://www.whale.to/m/measlesdeaths1.html
And vaccination is sold as the only method of preventing measles deaths and damage, when it can’t have been more than .6%. And the nutritional treatments aren’t used, which is suppression by ignoring. they would invalidate vaccination completely.
>Here’s a small experiment for you: go to a mainstream non-autism, non-vaccine related message board and post about the evils of vaccines. See what responses you get.
Non-vaccine boards are hardly informed on vaccination. As I said before it is appeal to the majority, a logical fallacy.
And I have been on a few and it is usually 10 to 1 for vaccination, but that doesn’t mean anything, I can take their arguments apart easily, and there are 270,000 people working for the medical industry in the UK, who have to believe. While anti-vax people are rare, there isn’t much incentive, you don’t get paid, you just get abused by the majority.
>I didn’t claim any knowledge – I said, in my experience, in non-autism, non-vaccine related fori, people were sceptical of the kind of wing-nuttery you promote.
Wing nuttery? Just shows how ignorant you are, that is ad hominem. Vaccination has a huge history of killing and maiming children, must be 3,000 peer review articles on the subject. They withdrew MMR Urabe as it caused meningitis, and dozens of other vaccines have been withdrawn after they killed children, so if you don’t study history then you can make your sort of comments.
And any study of smallpox books c. 1890, ie after 90 years of smallpox vaccination would show you it was a farce.
Also there are dozens of anti-vax medical doctors, like Dr mendelsohn who was a baby doc for 30 years before he saw the light, Dr Buchwald MD who son was severly damaged by a vaccine, Dr Kalokerinos MD who was made Greek Aussie of the century recently. Hardly wing nuts, medical pioneers.
Dr Creighton and Dr Crookshank were the two most notable medical men of their day.
>“try some http://www.whale.to/m/fisher9.htmlâ€
>Thanks, I’ll pass. I don’t read anti-semitic quackery.
NVIC anti-semitic? Nice get out, do you tar anything you can’t stomach as anti-semitic? How convenient. “Quackery” is just ad hominem http://www.whale.to/p/quacks.html
PS. I turn up out of the blue to offer the alternative view point and you can see the abuse I get. Anti-semitic, quackery, wing nuttery, and “a real live anti-vaxxer” sounds like the sort of comment you’d expect in the deep south about a black man.
When you have no argument abuse tends to be the order of the day.
And no evidence for an epidemic of autism? That is laughable, and you don’t have epidemics of a genetic disease, even the vax experts say that http://www.whale.to/vaccines/autism_genetics.html
And as for better diagnosis, that is laughable as well http://www.whale.to/a/autism_diagnosis.html
All your references are whale.to – thats a source of antisemitic quackery. Find me _actual_ sources.
_”Non-vaccine boards are hardly informed on vaccination. As I said before it is appeal to the majority, a logical fallacy.”_
Let me guess – the only people informed on vaccines are people who think like you? Right?
_”I can take their arguments apart easily, and there are 270,000 people working for the medical industry in the UK, who have to believe. While anti-vax people are rare, there isn’t much incentive, you don’t get paid, you just get abused by the majority.”_
You’re not doing very well taking anyones argument apart here are you? The reason you get abused is because your stance is idiotic. It will be as long as your only source is quack sites like whale.to
_”Vaccination has a huge history of killing and maiming children, must be 3,000 peer review articles on the subject. They withdrew MMR Urabe as it caused meningitis, and dozens of other vaccines have been withdrawn after they killed children, so if you don’t study history then you can make your sort of comments.”_
Strawman. I did not claim vaccines are risk free, nor did I claim there weren’t adverse reactions. And how exactly do you feel that withdrawing a vaccine due to bad side effects is a conspiracy?
_”Hardly wing nuts, medical pioneers.”_
Appeal to authority. I don’t care who these people are. I care what they say.
_”NVIC anti-semitic? Nice get out, do you tar anything you can’t stomach as anti-semitic?”_
No. whale.to is antisemitic. Giv me proper sources, not quackery.
You have a closed mind, and your tag words (quackery, anti-semitic) are rationalisations to avoid any realisations you can’t face. Caleld Word game. Lets see what your excuse is with this site http://www.vaccination.org.uk/
How is the Office of National Statistics not a proper source?
Hey john,
Are you here to enlighten everyone to the dangers of vaccines or do you want to explain how vaccines cause autism?
Above you said: That is laughable, and you don’t have epidemics of a genetic disease, even the vax experts say that
Are you saying that autism isn’t genetic? Even the anti-vax experts claim that a genetic predisposition is part of the equation. Without looking I’d guess there is something to that effect on the whale.to site.
Really a moot point since there hasn’t been an autism epidemic.
_”You have a closed mind, and your tag words (quackery, anti-semitic) are rationalisations to avoid any realisations you can’t face. Caleld Word game. Lets see what your excuse is with this site http://www.vaccination.org.uk/“_
Its really not difficult. I don’t accept your self-serving quackery. If you have a hypothesis to present and debate, then present it and debate it. Cite your peer reviewed sources as evidence, not fringe quack sites.
_”How is the Office of National Statistics not a proper source?”_
Who said it wasn’t?
_”PS. I turn up out of the blue to offer the alternative view point and you can see the abuse I get. Anti-semitic, quackery, wing nuttery, and “a real live anti-vaxxer†sounds like the sort of comment you’d expect in the deep south about a black man.”_
Strawman: I said the sites you quote are antisemitic and quackery. You however, are quite clearly a wingnut and an anti-vaxxer. Your attempt to associate racism with this is distasteful and inaccurate.
_”When you have no argument abuse tends to be the order of the day.”_
When you have no argument, replying on quackery rather than science tends to be the order of the day.
_”And no evidence for an epidemic of autism? That is laughable, and you don’t have epidemics of a genetic disease, even the vax experts say that”_
So cite your evidence for an autism epidemic.
_”And as for better diagnosis, that is laughable as well”_
Why? Because you say so? At the moment your credibility rating is running into minus figures. All you’ve done so far is repeat some well known anti-vax rubbish, fail to cite anything approaching credible sources for your beliefs and then have a rant about it.
Inform us. We’re persuaded by good, replicable, peer reviewed science.
[sarcasm off]
http://www.kevinleitch.co.uk/forum/viewforum.php?id=17
Nobody…. whoever you are, grow up. You’re not impressing anyone, and you may well be pissing your own side off!
You know you’ve arrived when Whale shows up.
John should go back to the tinfoil hats and vast government conspiracy mongering, and stay away from the science he knows nothing about.
Nobody – I’m in favour of debate. So debate.
If you can’t or won’t then you’re wasting my time.
“…you may well be pissing your own side off!”
We could debate facts and opinions, but honestly I could care less about changing your mind. It seems that there are so many opinions out there, you know.
if….
“whenever the issue comes up virtually
nobody
really believes the MMR causes autism, or is in any way ‘controversial’.”
Although I do not believe that the MMR is “evil in a syringe” it is certainly controversial with more people in the medical profession than they are willing to admit publicly. Is “evil in a syringe” really what you believe that the other side believes? Hello strawman! In reality, there are numerous studies out there. It is up to you decide. I suggest that sometime in the future that you study up on live virus genetics, and what attenuated viruses can do. Meanwhile, you can offer $1 to Merck for cancer research, and continue to believe stuff that you should have known better than to believe after your first statisitics class. 😉
Gene Mutated In Cancer Found In Some With Autism
I am going to assume that
this is pure coincidence.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/05/050509211018.htm
Nobody – are you going to debate the points raised or continue to post irrelevancies? If the latter I’ll remove your comments. I’ve just sorted out two purveyors of bullshit and I really don’t have time or inclination to sort out more.
Put up or shut up.
Woooo,
John of whale.to . Wow. I mean wooooo. I guess it’s been too slow on EoHarm for him lately. Not enough interest in antivax “prophecies.”
The thing that bugs me is that his site [and I think generationrescue.com, too], promote orgone generators and tinfoil hats as a cure for alien mind control, and we all know that that causes autism, but all the *real* insiders know that orgone generators and “holy hand grenades” are tools of the ancient Zorbons from Mxronmiszf [don’t ask me how they pronounce it, they have a different kind of mouth]. I see whale.to as a tool of the Illuminati to control the vulnerable through wasting their time worrying about cell phone towers.
I think SAFEMINDS was originally an organization to fund the free distribution of foil or mylar lined thought-screen helmets, then they were sidetracked into this mercury thing. Waste o’ time, Sally!! Waste o’ time, Mark!! Go back to your original plan!
John, soak in a foil lined tub of zeolite and magnetic clay it’ll do the trick. Watch out for clogged plumbing, though.
“No. whale.to is antisemitic.”
How do you work that out?
_”J: What’s your opinion of the Jewish Holocaust?”_
_”E: It wasn’t really an issue until the late ’50’s. All of the sudden, they remembered that six million Jews died in WWII. I’ve often said that after six million Jews died, most of them went on to own apartments in Manhattan and Tel Aviv. It’s not really a topic that interests me much beyond how it’s used as propaganda and mind control. “_
Source
This whole page is pretty distasteful.
So – quote decent sources from decent sites.
Those measles stats completely demolish measles vaccination.
And you can’t accept MMR is unsafe for some reason, so you use “anti-semitic” as an excuse to avoid the material. Ad hominem.
I love the alien/tin foil stuff above, that is how some people avoid looking at the material also. Ad hominem conspiracy/alien mind control/tin foil hat. This one gets passed around, it was original about 10 years ago. Do your own thinking.
Those measles stats that your only reference for is whale.to – a site which also believes in so many lunatic fringe theories its hard not to think its some kind of a joke site.
Back those stats up with credible sources and I’ll be happy to debate them or the wider point you’re apparently trying to make.
I can’t accept MMR is unsafe because I see no evidence for that.
Does MMR/vaccines cause autism: its a question of science. Debate the points using science not illuminati anti-semitic conspiracy theory crap.
I gave the governments stat office as a reference, so you go and buy the CD and prove me wrong, I would hardly spend £50 and 5 hours extracting the info, and post it on the internet if it was wrong, I am not that stupid. Also, I can’t find any government or vaccine industry site that has the UK death stats for the 20 cent, I wonder why? Which was why I went and got them myself.
“I can’t accept MMR is unsafe”
When you can accept the possibility get back to me, our beliefs create our reality. All the government “MMR is safe” studies have been taken apart, and they can’t have this MMR going down after the last one went down.
You only sit on lists that believe it is safe, and avoid vaccine lists or lists that don’t like EOHarm. People who know MMR caused their child’s autism avoid lists who believe it is safe, and only vaccine list people do any real research into vaccination.
I don’t have to time to waste talking with closed minds, I was just curious to see what spurious excuse you would come up with to avoid the data. I never mention Illuminati conspiracy stuff when debating vaccination, but I know why you went and found that info and avoided the vaccination stuff. Wikipedia has pages to all that, also, but you use Wikipedia when it suits you, your straw man argument, funny you can’t get the other logical fallacies!
_”I gave the governments stat office as a reference, so you go and buy the CD and prove me wrong, I would hardly spend £50 and 5 hours extracting the info, and post it on the internet if it was wrong, I am not that stupid. Also, I can’t find any government or vaccine industry site that has the UK death stats for the 20 cent, I wonder why? Which was why I went and got them myself.”_
So your source only exists on a CD? You’ve got a big site – turn the CD into an image and upload it. We can download the unaltered source then.
_”When you can accept the possibility get back to me, our beliefs create our reality. All the government “MMR is safe†studies have been taken apart, and they can’t have this MMR going down after the last one went down.”_
Read what I wrote. I can accept the possibility. Of course its a possibility. Its also a possibility that my local pub team will win the FA Cup next season. Its highly unlikely though. If you believe MMR isn’t safe then present your resons and cite your sources. The only proviso is that those sources have to be decent science.
_”You only sit on lists that believe it is safe, and avoid vaccine lists or lists that don’t like EOHarm.”_
I see. So you’re confirming what I thought was true – EoH is antivaccine?
_”People who know MMR caused their child’s autism avoid lists who believe it is safe, and only vaccine list people do any real research into vaccination.”_
So they ‘know’ and then do research? And you say my mind is closed? How about the scientific method of postulating a theory, testing it, replicating it a few times and _then_ announcing what you ‘know’?
_”I never mention Illuminati conspiracy stuff when debating vaccination, but I know why you went and found that info and avoided the vaccination stuff.”_
I didn’t go and find it – its on your bloody home page!
When it comes to matters of science I can either read good replicable science and ask questions of scientists, or I could turn to wingnuts like you and read all about the Illuminati or how the WTC attacks were perpetrated by the US or how the Holocaust never really happened, or how AIDS was used to systematically eradicate homosexuality. Or how vaccines cause autism.
Do vaccines cause autism? Its a question of science. Answer it or debate it with science, not lunatic conspiracy theory.
_”Wikipedia has pages to all that, also, but you use Wikipedia when it suits you, your straw man argument, funny you can’t get the other logical fallacies!”_
Wikipedia at least takes a stab at being balanced. Your site is embarrasingly inept and one sided.
I’ll ask you once more – present your points that support your belief MMR is dangerous and/or vaccines cause autism, back them up with good science and I’ve got no issues. Can you manage that or not?
Is that your alter ego? His name is Name Calling or Ad Hominem. Try and get Word Game http://www.whale.to/vaccine/propaganda3.html if you can. It is a logical fallacy, like Straw Man. I am sure you want to increase your knowledge.
You’ll like this one http://www.whale.to/vaccines/mmr4499.html
“All drugs, including vaccines can have side effects. The Government accepts this – why else would it make vaccine damage pay-outs of up to £100,000? But, publicly, it claims no deaths have been associated with MMR. How can it do this when its own officials and post-mortem reports state otherwise?”
Lying is a conspiracy to deny people the truth for financial gain, mostly.
John – one _last_ time – do you want to start debating with good reliable sources or not. A simply ‘yes’ or ‘no’ will suffice.
The government do not claim no MMR deaths are not ‘associated’ with the MMR. They say – correctly – that no deaths are _caused_ by MMR. The report you cite on your site says the same thing. As I show in this blog post – correlation does not equal causation.
“They say – correctly – that no deaths are caused by MMR. ”
Which is a lie, as the US gov has paid out for deaths, and even lists death on its site:
“Any acute complication or sequela (including death) of above events” http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/table.htm
and the UK has paid out for MMR deaths.
Very misleading john.
The table you quote does not ‘list death’ as a direct potential side effect of MMR. _If_ a patient has a reaction to the vaccine that leads to Anaphylaxis, anaphylactic shock, Encephalopathy or encephalitis under the conditions noted in points 1 and 2 which then in turn leads to death under the conditions noted in point 4(i.e. death is a _direct_ result of the above). Do you have any data indicating these types of death have happened in the UK and that the UK Govmnt have hidden this?
Where is your cite for the UK paying our for MMR deaths?
Assuming you can establish all the above, what data is there to suggest these are common enough occurrences to not be statistically insignificant in relation to a pattern of death? Or autism?
Kev said
“My daughter had a reaction to her DTP – vomiting, fever – we panicked and took her to A&E where her fever settled almost immediately. At the time we were **‘100% sure’ that the DTP jab caused/triggered her autism but we’re not any more.”**
Not 100% sure any more?
or
Not sure any more?
or
Know it wasn’t the DPT jab that caused/triggered autism?
If the latter then what changed your opinion?
Century
You just can’t accept it. They would be alive but for the vaccine. http://www.whale.to/vaccines/mmr123.html http://www.whale.to/vaccine/mmr2.html
Japan gov has paid out for deaths http://www.whale.to/a/mmr655.html
The US gov doesn’t deny it can kill, they pay out and accept the fact.
So, the UK gov is lying, when it says it is safe, and doesn’t kill.
No idea what you are on about re stat insig.
“MMR vaccine is known to induce brain inflammation and death within 8 to 14 days after vaccination”–Barbara Loe Fisher, of the NVIC who doesn’t lie.
_”Know it wasn’t the DPT jab that caused/triggered autism?”_
That one.
_”If the latter then what changed your opinion?”_
Learning about autism from autistic people instead of medical people, two sets of testing, common sense, unsupported literature on the link.
_”You just can’t accept it. They would be alive but for the vaccine.”_
That may be your opinion john but without any kind of evidence to back it up its just that – opinion. You’re welcome to it.
_”Japan gov has paid out for deaths”_
We’re not talking about Japan.
_”The US gov doesn’t deny it can kill, they pay out and accept the fact.”_
We’re not talking about the US
_”So, the UK gov is lying, when it says it is safe, and doesn’t kill.”_
We’re not discussing the possibility it _can_ kill – of course it can, any drug can – you said it was a fact that it _had_ killed these kids and that the Uk Gvmnt had covered it up. Back it up or retract it.
_”Barbara Loe Fisher, of the NVIC who doesn’t lie.”_
Another great source.
Science John – these are questions of science. Where is your science? I’m aware you’re heavily into the conspiracy theory stuff but to answer a question of science, you require science, not quackery.
I didn’t say they had covered it up, I said they lied when they say it doesn’t kill, which is a conspiracy to deny people the truth. Whether that is a cover-up depends on your definition. They have covered up the truth by lying about that.
You said: “They say – correctly – that no deaths are caused by MMR.”
It is strange that you can pretend MMR in Japan and USA have no bearing on the UK. Perhpas you should say “no deaths caused by MMR in the UK.”
And if you want to believe that it can’t kill in the UK for some reason, then be my guest. When the media report the gov has paid out you, and the parents report getting paid, then that is good enough for me. Prove me wrong, but don’t bother trying to get the data from the gove, I have tried and they refused to answer.
Fisher is a great source, she used to sit on vaccine advisory committees, and spends her life helping vaccine damaged children. If you can provide evidence she has lied or is not reliable, but the US gov has paid out over $1 Billion to vaccine victims.
_”I didn’t say they had covered it up,”_
Your very first post to this thread, referring to the UK Gvmnt:
_”The government has paid out for MMR deaths, yet insists MMR is safe. That is a cover-up in my book unless you figure death is safe”_
_”I said they lied when they say it doesn’t kill”_
Where is the Gvmnt statement saying that MMR never kills?
_”It is strange that you can pretend MMR in Japan and USA have no bearing on the UK”_
I didn’t. I was responding to your points about the UK Gvmnt. I’m fully prepared to accept that some people may have died as an associated result of an adverse reaction. What I saying is that I see no indication that this is anything other than a rare, tragic event. Statistically, its insignificant unless you can show me good data to illustrate otherwise? Thats about the fourth time I’ve asked you and yet I still seem to be waiting. When will you stop wriggling and answer the question?
_”When the media report the gov has paid out you, and the parents report getting paid, then that is good enough for me.”_
You’re not listening. I’m not denying that any vaccine can be associated with death. I simply want evidence that its at a level of statistical significance and/or that it is or even can be a direct cause.
_”Fisher is a great source, she used to sit on vaccine advisory committees, and spends her life helping vaccine damaged children.”_
I’m sure she’s a saint but that’s not the issue. Good sources, unbiased and without an agenda to promote are convincing. Neither you, nor she, is.