Truth and Consequences – The Anti-Vaccination Movement Exacts a Price

23 Sep

“I feel like getting in my car, driving away and never coming back. I can’t stand it anymore. If the screaming, howling, humming, and screeching doesn’t stop I will lose my mind. 14 hours a day. From the second he open his eyes until the second he closes them there is noise. Even if you tell him to be quiet he sits there and says “be quiet…be quiet” over and over. Not more than 10 seconds goes by where some ridiculous sound isn’t coming out of my son. He talks in a high pitched screechy voice that makes every nerve ending stand on end. He screeches and screams for no reason. The humming, the high pitched humming all day long. I can’t take it. My head hurts so bad and there are only so many things I can take for a headache. I wake up at 7 am, or rather I am awakened by screeching at 7am and get no peace until about 9pm. By then my head hurts so much it doesn’t matter. I can’t get anything done because I can’t focus with the noise in the background. I can’t have a phone call. I can’t have a conversation in person. I know this is going to upset some people but I swear, I miss the days when he didn’t make a peep. not a single peep. I remember when I used to cry and ask him to talk to me, to say anything. I should have been more specific and wished he’d speak and make meaningful sentances rather than walk around all day and say meaningless phrases over and over, and scream and screech when he didn’t. know what meaningless phrase to use at the moment. I have about 40 minutes before he goes to bed then I get to listen to him hum himself to sleep for an hour. By then I should be ready to jump off a roof.

Thanks for letting me vent. Not sure if it made me feel better but at least if I jump off the roof someone knows why”

Posted by “Mary”, mother of “Saul”, age 7.9 (7 years, 9 months), to an autism “biomedical treatment” yahoo group in August 2009.

The idea that vaccines might be a cause of autism has received a great deal of attention from the media. Scientifically, the question has been thoroughly investigated and thoroughly discredited.

Legally, the idea has also been rejected. The Autism Omnibus case bundled the claims of almost 5000 children against the Vaccine Injury Compensation program. In the hearings for the first of three theories of causation, the lawyers for the parents and their children chose the strongest three cases to illustrate their claim that MMR vaccines and thimerosal-containing vaccines can combine to cause autism. On February 12, 2009, all three cases were dismissed. The decisions were scathing, stating that “the overall weight of the evidence is overwhelmingly contrary to the petitioners’ causation theories.” Moreover, parents were characterized as a “loving, caring, and courageous” family “misled by physicians who are guilty of gross medical misjudgment. In June and July of 2009, all test cases were appealed, and all three were dismissed.

The yahoo group “Environment of Harm” formerly “Evidence of Harm”, was established to discuss the book of the latter title, written by journalist David Kirby. The focus of the group is to discuss

“issues of government public health negligence and corruption and the various political efforts by parents to end the spectrum of epidemics that is being revealed as mercury poisoning, especially autism.”

From March 2005, the date of the book’s publication, until February 2009, when the Omnibus legal decisions were rendered, the group received an average of over 2000 posts per month. Since the rulings, the posting rate has dropped to only 800 per month, perhaps indicating that the issue is also losing momentum from a political point of view.

The mainstream media, the groups such as the AAP, and the blog sphere have also pushed back in an effort to educate the public on the harm done by the vaccines cause autism groups.

But behind the scientific and legal consensus that vaccines do not cause autism lies a hidden world, the autism “biomedical” yahoo- and chat-group world. There is no decline in the number of posts in this world. It’s a thriving, and growing community, one that has fueled the popularity of the anti-vaxers, and the certainty of those parents who consider their child “vaccine-injured”. It has spurred the spending of millions of dollars on supplements, hyperbaric treatments, off-label prescription medications, and myriad other autism “biomedical treatments”. These “treatments” are almost all of no proven benefit, some are ridiculous, some relatively benign, and many potentially dangerous. This article will explore the journey of one mother, “Mary” in her efforts to cure her son “Saul”. While the case of Mary and Saul, documented in her own words is shocking and appalling, Mary is not alone nor is she an extreme case. She is one of thousands of parents seeking autism “biomedical treatments” on the internet.

We first meet Mary in October 2003, when her son Saul (born November 2001) was only 22 months of age. She began posting on the group NLT (for a description of the yahoo groups discussed in this article see the section at the end). She stated that her son

“is basically non verbal. He said his first word, duck, at 7 months old. About a month later he said light, off , and on, but dropped duck. This set a pattern for him. Anytime he learned a new word he dropped any old words he had used at that point. Now, his only real words are Mama and Dada. He will on a rare occassion say car. He has had and lost about 20 words since 7 months of age.”

Shortly thereafter, he was evaluated by early intervention, and psychologist wrote PDD on his evaluations, along with the term Autistic-like. Mary was told that he was not autistic, but he’s autistic like. 10-20 hours a week of intensive in home therapy (ABA) was recommended.

So, Saul is a very young child, showing speech delay and signs of autism, evaluated very quickly, and almost immediately started on early intervention. Of course, Mary is understandably upset:

“I don’t know why I’m so upset. He (the psychologist) didn’t say anything I didn’t already know or suspect. I guess its just because my fears were realized. Rather than come in and say “oh no, he’s fine, he’s just a late talker” I heard what I was hoping not too. I’m sure that somehow to some degree this is my fault. Saul was such a quiet content infant, and he was content to play by himself as he got older I sort of went with it. I figured he was happy let me go do dishes, or laundry or whatever and let him entertain himself. Yeah that was great but now he is only happy by himself and turns in to himself and its my fault I know it is.”

Recent research (two links:here and here) has looked at the impact of parental acceptance of their child’s autism diagnosis. It was found that parents who do not come to a resolution (i.e. come to terms with and accept the diagnosis and its implications) find raising their child more difficult. In the case of Mary, we will see a real-life example of a mother failing to come to terms with her child’s PDD.

Here’s Mary again:

Thank you everyone for your support. I’m sorry I forgot to mention Saul’s age. He will be 2 at the end of the month.

I’m feeling a lot better but still overwhelmed. I want to read as much as possible so I can do the best to help him but I think I need a little time to come to terms.

A few questions though if anyone knows…Do kids diagnosed with PDD always end up as special ed or is their hope with therapy he main go mainstream. The reason I ask is that my cousin teaches 5th grade special d and the majority of her kids are PDD kids, and have been in special ed since kindergarten. What are the odds that my child will grow up, go to college and lead what is considered a normal life?

Also, I was reading about a special diet that gluten free that is supposedly helpful. Has anyone tried this?

Should I just go with the system for say 6 mos or so and see how he responds and progresses before trying anything different like diet changes or supplements.

Sorry if I’m asking a million questions. My brain is spinning and all the websites I go to just overwhelm me more. Everyone here seems to have such a wealth of knowledge, and more importantly personal experience and understanding.”

This message signals the start of a frightening journey into the realms of woo. The “treatments” inflicted on Saul are very painful to read. Mary joined numerous autism “biomedical treatment” yahoo groups. She is presently a member of all the groups in the box, see below (except EoH), and more besides. She has posted more than 3500 messages to these groups. Mary reveals her willingness to accept medical advice from strangers on the internet, and her trust in doctors employing “gross medical misjudgment”. Between the ages of 3.6 and 7.9, Saul has been “treated” with the following (in alphabetical order):

Acetyl L Carnitine –
acetylated form of L-carnitine
(quaternary ammonium compound biosynthesized from the amino acids lysine and methionine)
Actos (pioglitazone)
-prescription drug which carries a black box warning
Cal/Mag Butyrate – mineral supplement
Candex
– marketed as an enzymatic remedy to treat the yeast infection candida
Carnosine -amino acid
Chelation – process of removing heavy metals
Andrew Cutler protocol (at least 50 rounds)
DAN protocol for 2 1/2 years.
15 IVs of EDTA & Glutathione
5 IVs of DMPS and glutathione
5 combined IVs DMPS/EDTA/Glutathione
Chiropractic
Diflucan – prescription anti-fungal
Dimethyl glycine – modified amino acid
Enhansa – Enhanced absorption curcumin supplement
Epsom salt baths
Essential fatty acids
Flagyl (Metronidazole) – prescription anti-fungal
Folinic acid – modified folic acid
Folapro – highly absorbable folate
Galantamine
prescription drug used for the treatment of mild to moderate
Alzheimer’s disease and various memory impairments
GFCF diet – gluten-free-casein-free diet (3 years)
GFCF diet with digestive enzymes for infractions
HBOT
hyperbaric oxygen treatment
(Mary owns her own Mary owns a Vitaeris 320)
HLC MindLinx Powder by Pharmax – probiotic
IM Bicillin – prescription intramuscularly injected form of penicillin
Inositol – a nutrient
IVIG – Intravenous Immunoglobulin
prescription
used to treat immune dysfunction
contains the pooled immunoglobulin G (IgG)
immunoglobulins from the plasma of approximately a
thousand or more blood donors
Klaire Labs Detoxification Support and Factor 4 – probiotic
Liquid Bodybio PC – phosphatidylcholine with essential fatty acids
Liquid grapefruit seed extract
Low dose Naltrexone – an anti-opiod
L-theanine – amino acid
Magnesium supplements
MB12 – Methylcobalamin, vitamin B12 – shots
MB12 – Methylcobalamin, vitamin B12 – spray
Nicotine patch
Nizoral – antifungal
Nystatin – antifungal
OLE – olive leaf extract
OSR
(N,N’-bis (2-mercaptoethyl)isophthalamide,
also know as 1,3-benzenediamidoethanethiol)
an untested synthetic chemical
Oxytocin nasal spray
PCA-Rx – purports to remove toxins from the body
Phosphatidylcholine
Pro Bio – probiotic
Quercetin – antioxidant flavinoid
Reduced glutathione cream
Threelac -probiotic
Transdermal NAC (N-Acetyl Cysteine)
Valtrex (valacyclovir)
used to treat infections caused by herpes viruses
Vitamin C
Vitamin E
Zithromax – antibiotic

Mary has been tireless in “treating” Saul. But what about Saul? One would think that he must be very impacted by autism in order for her to go to these extraordinary lengths to cure him. Actually, no. He’s an extraordinary kid, and a wonderful one. Saul could identify all of the letters in any order and count to 40 at age 2.2. He started sight reading words at about 2.3 and at age 2.8 could sight read about 30 words. He started kindergarten in a segregated setting at age 4.9, , talked to the teacher, “he sat nicely through circle time, sat at his desk during class, and even raised his hand and answered questions. He was pointing to shapes on the wall and quizzing the teachers!” Here is Mary’s description of Saul at age 4.7:

“I woke up this morning and he was in bed with me. I’m not sure what time he came in because I never heard or felt him get into bed which is unusual. I woke up and felt him there. I rolled over and his little face was right there. He looked so peaceful and really has the face of an angel. I just laid there and stared at him for about 20 minutes. He yawned and opened his eyes. He saw me and his face lit up with a HUGE ear to ear grin. “Good morning Mom. Love you. Gimme a hug.” He gave me such a big strong hug. “Gimme a kiss.” I gave him a kiss. A second later his gears kicked in and he was off and running on full speed. After a few minutes he came back in the room and said “GIMME BREAKFAST! ! !””

But the “biomedical treatments” have not always been kind to Saul. Here’s Mary describing him at age 5.11

My son is on a ton of supplements. We haven’t really changed anything. Starting August 30, for three weeks we had to stop all enzymes, antifungals and probiotics in preparation for a endoscopy/colonoscopy. He is back on everything since he was scoped on Sept 20. Also at the beginning of August he had a high fever and a nasty rash that was diagnosed as Fifth’s Disease. I’m not convinced it was Fifths. He didn’t have the bright red cheeks and the rash was gone in 3 days.

After being sick he became clingy and a little whiny. In the past month its become horrible. I can’t even stand up without his whining “mommy..moooommmmmy, mommy will come.” I hear this the entire time I’m out of the room. Even if I tell him what I’m going to do and that I’ll be right back he continues saying it over and over. He whines over every little thing. Usually just lets out a big “WWWAAAAHHH” and it goes on and on. He cries over everything. He’s driving me insane. We are also seeing a decrease in spontaneous expressive language, asking repetitive questions, and repeating back questions instead of answering them.”

Nor have the “biomedical treatments” been kind to the family budget. In one message, Mary admitted that each month she spent $2800 – $3500 for IVIG, plus about $500 in supplements including the cost of chelation.

In a rare moment of insight, in May 2008, Mary posted:

“Sometimes I feel like a mad scientist and my poor kid is my guinea pig.”

Finally, a year later, she posted the preamble to this article (see box at top). How’s that “biomedical treatment” working out for you, Mary?

Such are the real costs of the anti-vaccination movement, the “biomedical treatment” internet groups. And the real costs of a parent unable to accept their child’s diagnosis. In her last message to the NLT group, Mary is still in denial about her son’s diagnosis:

RE: Sowell Traits
My son is 5 and is diagnosed PDD-NOS fits 7 of these to a T! ! ! The only one that doesn’t fit is # 7

Makes me wonder what we are really dealing with.”

Thousands of parents are members of these yahoo groups. Once inside the cozy echo chamber of the group, there is general acceptance that vaccines cause autism. Members expressing opposing views are drummed out of the group. It is taken as an article of faith that there are children recovering from autism by the use of these biomedical interventions. The parents get poorer, the quacks get richer, and the innocent children are the victims of often dangerous and painful experimentation at the hands of the people who are supposed to care for them the most.

Some Yahoogroups

A-M – Autism-Mercury. Membership 8400, 2000 messages/month (archives public)

“To discuss current issues related to the increasing incidence of autism the potential link between excessive mercury exposure via thimerosal in infant vaccines. Topics include: mercury detoxification (“chelation”), mercury-related issues/news, and vaccination-related issues/news. Most members are parents of children with autism, aspergers, ADD, ADHD, PDD, PDD-NOS, SID, oppositional defiance disorder, apraxia, speech disorders, and/or other related symptoms. There are many labels: you are welcome regardless of particular label(s). In addition to mercury, we also discuss other heavy metals (for example: arsenic, antimony, lead). Many parents here are in the process of chelation, with a child. This process is discussed in detail. Also welcome: mercury poisoned adults; other disorders/issues related to mercury poisoning; other biomedical treatments for ASD.”

Comment: Primarily discusses Andrew Cutler heavy metal chelation protocol. This protocol relies on faux “counting rules” applied to hair testing to purportedly prove that people are “mercury toxic”. Andrew Cutler has a PhD in Chemical Engineering.

CK2 – Chelatingkids2. Membership 6600, 3000 messages/month

“This list is for parents and/or family members of children with autism who are seeking biomedical intervention, The main focus of treatment here follows the DAN! or Defeat Autism Now.”

Comment: Mercury chelation according to the DAN! protocol. This protocol relies on provoked urine tests to purportedly prove “mecury toxcicity”. This very active group has been recently closed to new postings for an unspecified period of time.

EoH – Environment of Harmformerly Evidence of Harm. Membership 2300, 600 messages/month (archives public)

“This is the Environment of Harm discussion list focusing on vaccine damage and mercury poisoning as it relates to autism. Of keen interest to participants are the issues of government public health negligence and corruption and the various political efforts by parents to end the spectrum of epidemics that is being revealed as mercury poisoning, especially autism.”

Comment: Politically active group originally supporting the autism is caused by mercury poisoning hypothesis, but now openly anti-vaccine.

GFCFKids– Membership 14000, 3500 posts/month

“The principle aim of this list is to provide a discussion forum for parents of children on the autism spectrum who are avoiding gluten and casein and other substances in their children’s diets. We hope that the discussions will include practical information and tips on following a GFCF(etc) diet; scientific research and opinion; the latest developments in understanding GFCF(etc) diet-related health problems; your personal stories and experiences with relation to GFCF(etc) problems; information on what food is GFCF(etc)and what is not; tips on how to eat out of the house; recipes and tips on how to cook and prepare GFCF(etc) food; what vitamins, minerals, herbs and other supplements may be appropriate for a child with autism, how to cope with difficult diet demands, plus support for parents.”

Comment: One of the largest “biomedical treatment” yahoo groups. While the GFCF diet has substantial anecdotal support, clinical trials have not shown any benefit. The GFCF diet appears relatively harmless, however, it can result in weakening of bones due to nutritional deficiencies. Moreover, it often acts as a first step on the path to more dangerous “biomedical treatments”.

NLT – NaturalLateTalkers. Membership 2900, 500 messages/month

“This list is a support for parents of latetalkers or speech delay with some or all traits of latetalker listed in the book Late Talking Children by Thomas Sowell. . . Here parents ARE and will be able to discuss their problems, concerns, and dissatisfaction with the over diagnosing done by various systems, such as speech therapists, doctors, schools, etc. Parent’s choice helping with speech through parent or another source is to be respected.” (sic)

Comment: This list supports those in deep denial about their child’s autism. While such support groups appear to be relatively benign, offering mutual support to parents of children with disabilities, they are often an entry point for parents to learn about the autism “biomedical treatment” and anti-vaccination movements. These groups are replete with examples of parents taking medical advice from strangers over the internet, many of whom are accorded more credibility than the medical professionals who have actually seen their children.

518 Responses to “Truth and Consequences – The Anti-Vaccination Movement Exacts a Price”

  1. Chris October 12, 2009 at 02:47 #

    My apologies. Still, this has been out for a bit, why go nuts now?

    I have two sons, the older one has a very severe speech communication disorder and the younger one was a classic late talker as described by Thomas Sowell. They were completely different.

    The older son is still quite disabled, and younger child had a couple years of speech/language therapy from age three to five and was able to enter a regular ed. kindergarten. He has entered college with several credits due to getting good AP test scores. All without the various magic treatments.

    Do you guys encourage the experimenting on your children, or do you try to provide support by explaining special ed. services and how to deal with speech/language therapists?

  2. Guest Blogger October 12, 2009 at 02:55 #

    Yes, as I have clearly stated somewhat upthread in the comments, I am a member of all the groups I have taken quotes from. Indeed, some of the groups are “private” in that you need a membership to see the posts. But, as I have clearly stated, I am a long-standing member of all these groups. I joined these groups many years ago, when my child with ASD was first diagnosed, when I was first exploring the causes of ASD, and I have retained my membership over all these years. I have not “lied” in order to gain access.

    People, get a grip. There are several thousand members of all these groups. Not all of them are still in the thrall of “biomedical autism treatments” or “my child isn’t really autistic, he’s just a Sowell kid, a viral kid, a yeast kid”, etc. Let’s face it, I’m just one of the myriad members of these groups who have moved away from their cozy group-think. I’m just one of those who is disturbed enough by the postings to actually do something about it.

  3. Getgo October 12, 2009 at 03:05 #

    Perhaps then you can’t comprehend the meaning of the word “private.” What you did was a huge breech of trust. It’s immoral and unethical. I suspect you know that since you are hiding under “GuestBlogger” instead of using a name.

    We don’t post there to be fodder for your grand theories. We post there for support and to exchange ideas.

    There were easy enough ways to make your points (some of which are quite good ones) without tainting them with your deceits, or trying to harm another parent.

  4. Anna October 12, 2009 at 03:25 #

    This so called guest blogger is most definitely a disturbed individual.

    These groups are there as support – not for creeps who pretend otherwise and join to stalk individuals.

  5. another guest October 12, 2009 at 03:30 #

    I know for a fact, that another group was formed because this ” guest blogger” was stalking an individual on the group.
    The same one was stalking another in real life – putting out threats.
    Be careful folks. This is a pretty sick person.

  6. Outraged Parent October 12, 2009 at 03:51 #

    This article is the height of ridiculous and the “Guest Blogger” clearly deranged.

    I think it’s sad and pathetic that certain folks (Laura aka “Guest Blogger?”) will set out to defame and harass other parents because their child is not what Laura/Guest Blogger thinks that child should be.

    Nauseating, really. However, most folks with half a brain can dismiss this garbage for what it is: insane babbling of a whiny parent who uses their child to get the attention that she so desperately craves.

    You didn’t have the backbone to stand up and get some real answers for your child, so you’re ticked off at the ones who do.

  7. Chris October 12, 2009 at 04:20 #

    Now you guys mentioned a “Laura” that drummed out of the NLT group. Was it because she questioned the therapies, or because of something else.

    Unlike the Autism-Mercury group, I don’t see how the NLT group would be focused on experimental biomedical treatment as opposed to educational and language therapy issues. What would make you claim that she is a “stalker”?

    Are dissenting opinions not allowed on the NLT group? If someone questions therapies like chelation or massive vitamin supplementation, is that supported or does that make them a target for nasty-grams?

    What exactly is the focus of the NLT group that it cannot stand to a certain amount of scrutiny?

  8. Getgo October 12, 2009 at 04:35 #

    Chris, she was banned because she started her own blog, featuring and mocking the personal messages of people on the natural late talkers board. Kind of like what “GuestBlogger” did on this post.

    Because it’s not the focus of the group, there’s no discussion on vaccines or any biomedical treatments, other than to say, we don’t talk about this, because there’s no science behind it. Some people have left the group because of that…and one supposes that they have moved on to the biomedical groups. Not every group is going to work for every situation, obviously.

    The group focuses on language development, and how to deal with school systems and EI programs and others in the diagnosing business that are ill-equipped to deal with late talkers and are unable to tell the differences between late talking and autism.

  9. Chris October 12, 2009 at 04:46 #

    Okay, that makes some sense.

    But you do realize that “Mary” was also posting on the Autism-Mercury yahoo board, and that Guest Blogger focused on the vast array of biomedical treatments (plus she changed the name). Since the NLT does not focus on biomedical, we can now assume that those posts were taken from the Autism-Mercury board. Because if they were posted on the NLT group, you guys would have obviously told that they were not useful, and not part of the focus of your group.

    I assume that if “Mary” did post that long list of chemicals she was pouring into her child there would be responses cautioning her that it might be dangerous. Do you encourage or discourage discussion of that type? Because if you focus on language development, the biomedical experiments would automatically be off-topic.

  10. Getgo October 12, 2009 at 04:52 #

    It looks like there are 3 posts from the NLT board….the earlier ones, mentioning a Dx and special ed and the like.

    The biomed stuff is from other groups. Again, for the third time, we don’t talk about that stuff.

  11. Chris October 12, 2009 at 05:01 #

    Since the focus of this blog posting is about “Mary” doing biomedical experimentation on her son (hence the long list of stuff she subjected him to), then why do you have a bee in your bonnet about it?

    Instead of calling Guest Blogger names and accusing him/her of being someone who was banned, you should be more clearly pointing out that your group does not encourage biomedical treatments (or other medical experimentation), but making it quite clear that your group only discusses diagnoses, education, IEPs, insurance and where to get good speech/language therapy.

    You should be distancing yourself as far away from parents like “Mary” as you possibly can.

  12. Dedj October 12, 2009 at 06:51 #

    I’d like to thank getgo for clearing a few things up in a (relatively) calm and graceful manner.

    However, others have accused GB of being deranged, disturbed, criminal, a stalker, a liar, fraudulent and worse. GB has already indicated that he/she had legitimate access to the initial posts, thus no ‘theft’ or ‘stalking’ would have been needed to provide the information in the OP.

    If GB has commited acts of stalking that is a seperate issue, not substantiated by accusing him/her of ‘stealing’ information he/she was freely provided with or accusing him/her of ‘stalking’ because they can use a search function.

    At least one member of this board has had personal identifying information deliberately collated and distributed in places any person would have reasonably known would result in harrassment and threats, which in this case it did, including one made in reference to their place of work.

    Other members have been openly smeared in similar fashion to GB. Offensive and derogatory insults towards several of the most prominent members have been slung about here and in places that dicuss this thread.

    I myself have been accused of saying things I did not, for reasons that don’t exist, by people that kept making the accusations even after being corrected publically.

    I have seen accusations of professional misconduct and criminal behaviour being levelled at identified members of this board, I am very glad I do not use my real name.

    I don’t agree with GB’s behaviour, but I fail to see how any person that objects to GB’s actions could not be shocked and horrified at some of the words and actions of some of GB’s critics. Nothing I’ve seen working in mental health or with people with challenging behaviour compares with the severity and intensity of hatred that has been directed at GB and people who were just caught in the crossfire.

    This is my last post in this thread. I suggest it be the last one.

  13. A quick note by another guest October 12, 2009 at 13:46 #

    calm and graceful manner.

    <>>>

    In issues of internet stalking, it is often advised to not give out too much information as to the methods and exactly what this person is doing.
    I agree that putting out this information about someone without backing it up with facts can be questionable so I respect the commentary.
    I can only say, that because this person has stalked people on one board , been asked to leave, does not leave, and fakes introductions to get into private discussion lists, then steals emails, details can’t be given here because it compromises any investigating .
    This is potentially a legal matter or eventually a technical matter ( may or may not be) and it also would have to reveal private matters of individuals who have been stalked by this person.
    I will ask, that if there is a responsible authority on this website , I am happy to discuss it with them, and they can indicate it here with a valid email address.
    Because the problematic person lurks here, and what I know has happened to others, I am not comfortable discussing it further here.

  14. Guest Blogger October 12, 2009 at 14:11 #

    And my last word. Again 😉

    I see lots of outrage from the NLT and “autism biomedical treatment” communities. But none of it is directed at the Big List(TM), and no sympathy is given to “Saul” and the fear and pain he must have been subjected to. No outrage at the fact that he has been dosed with an entirely synthetic chemical(OSR), which could be a carcinogen for all we know. No outrage at the dozens of intravenous treatments. No shock at the 50 rounds of chelation, which involves dosages every 4 hours around the clock.

    My sympathies lie with Saul, and with all the other innocent children subjected to these treatments after the encouragement of the echo-chamber of the yahoo group.

  15. A quick note by another guest October 12, 2009 at 14:40 #

    I have sympathies for Saul , but stalking to make a point is problematic and unethical.
    As pointed out before by quite a few people here, these points can be made without faking identities to get into private email lists and stealing emails .
    As mentioned before, if there is a responsible authority who runs the website , please indicate it here.

  16. Laura October 12, 2009 at 15:03 #

    oh good lord. I’m not a guest blogger. I commend guest blogger for what he has done. If it weren’t for the first hand accounts of “recovered biomed” parents I might have flirted with that path. But I never did, in part because of the wise words of one recovered biomed parent, namely Kristina Chew, whose eloquent and persuasive prose set me straight. This post is a public service. So thank you, guest blogger.

  17. Joseph October 12, 2009 at 15:25 #

    In a more ideal world, all parents of newly diagnosed autistic children would be handed a pamphlet that warns about the autism quacks, charlatans and profiteers that will try to take advantage of the situation. It would discuss bogus labs that try to convince you that provoked testing means something, and so on.

    I think warning parents about what’s out there is a good thing.

  18. A quick note by another guest October 12, 2009 at 15:52 #

    It is a good thing to warn parents.
    In fact, some groups are started on that premise.
    Warning can be done appropriately , not as an internet stalker.
    A person does not have to mix… claiming one group to do something it does not …. in with other truths to get the point across.
    Unfortunately, the writer on this forum really did not have an agenda of warning parents of an issue – sympathy for Saul is not felt by this blogger – there is another agenda .
    This website ( as a whole )seems to originate as concern for unscientifically proven methods, and crackpot evaluations ,but that really is not the concern of this blogger.
    It is too bad because this behavior does discredit this website.
    I do hope an authority will make itself available in a responsible manner.

  19. Getgo October 12, 2009 at 16:35 #

    GuestBlogger, if you had any sympathy for Saul, you would have taken a totally different approach. You would not have subjected mom and son to hatred and ridicule on an Internet site by posting actual messages and making it easy to find out who they are.

    I see earlier that you rejected the idea of trying to befriend and counsel the mom. If you’d spent half the energy into that idea that you put combing obsessively through 3,500 messages, I bet you would have found a way to approach the mom where you could have made a real difference in Saul’s life.

    And the fact that you completely misrepresented
    the NLT site pretty much negates all your “research.” If you can’t be trusted on the simple definition of the NLT group, how can we believe that anything else you write is true?

  20. passionlessDrone October 12, 2009 at 18:01 #

    Hello friends –

    My hypocrisy sensor just exploded.

    My sympathies lie with Saul, and with all the other innocent children subjected to these treatments after the encouragement of the echo-chamber of the yahoo group.

    A simple reading of the original post reveals nothing to support this argument, and lots to support that what we are observing is a vindicative person with a couple of axes to grind, an itch needing to be scratched so badly that they are willing to comb through thousands of posts to come up with the orignal post. Imagine how many other peoples posts were read through; especially, if Mary is not an unusual case; as is posited by Guest Blogger. Ten thousand? Twenty thousand? All for the children?

    At least one third of the post is concerning vaccines; even though we are given absolutely no evidence that Mary believes her son’s condition was related to vaccination.

    Whats more, Guest Blogger appears to be someone who takes perverse pleasure if a child is suffering, so long as he/she disagrees with how this parent has tried to help her child.

    Finally, a year later, she posted the preamble to this article (see box at top). How’s that “biomedical treatment” working out for you, Mary?

    Can you imagine the unmitigated outrage on this board I were to take some of the very difficult, and indeed heartfelt posts from a blogger many of us know, whose son continues to face many challenges, one who has stuck with ‘traditional’ therapies? Imagine if I were to construct a narrative painting a picture of moving to different states, countless hours of ABA, speech therapies, and IEP meetings that showed that even after all of that work, her child still have very difficult days, and I concluded it with this:

    “How’s that “ABA” working out for you, semi-anonymized autism blogger?”

    What we have here is absolutely no different. This didn’t have anything to do with kids, but rather, everything to do with a bitter person trying to dispel their own demons by scavenging through the trash of another parent and vomiting up the self righteous results while pattig himself/herself on the back.

    – pD

  21. Outraged Parent October 13, 2009 at 01:31 #

    Well said, passionlessDrone, well said.

  22. Chris October 13, 2009 at 03:00 #

    Still, whatever you feel about how the information was obtained, it does not make doing medical experiments on a child any more valid.

    You may hate the messenger, but listen to the message: These biomedical treatments are not harmless, and there is no proven benefit for the risk the child is being exposed to.

  23. Steve D October 13, 2009 at 05:18 #

    Hi pD –
    Your statement of opinion rests precariously on the entirely false premise that ‘traditional’ and ‘biomedical’ treatments/therapies deserve the same consideration in any discussion of either safety or efficacy. Are you seriously trying to make a comparison between something like speech therapy (‘traditional’) and IV chelation? Between selecting the LRE and sticking a nicotine patch on a child?
    Perhaps while at the hypocrisy meter shop, you ought to have them take a look at your moral compass.

    Take care!
    -sD

  24. Sullivan October 13, 2009 at 06:51 #

    pD–

    go ahead and be critical if you chose, but please don’t mischaracterize the tone of this blog post.

    It is very easy to dismiss a post like this as “trashing another parent” or “self-righteous” or “bitter”.

    In essense you are doing exactly what you incorrectly blame guest-blogger for doing: lashing out in place of dialogue.

    As guest blogger points out, reading some of these groups is an extremely painful experience. Reading about children who suffer repeated adverse reactions to what amounts to poorly thought out, experimental treatments is something very painful for many of us parents to read. In the forums I used to read, parents who participated tended to accept the idea that adverse reactions are some sort of “die off” reaction and/or that adverse reactions are expected as a sign of the therapy working.

    If you think that anyone gets “perverse pleasure” out of this I would first ask “where did you get your mind-reading helmet” and then ask “do you think you can get it recalibrated”. You are way off base there.

  25. Joseph October 13, 2009 at 13:17 #

    Imagine if I were to construct…

    “How’s that “ABA” working out for you, semi-anonymized autism blogger?”

    Imagining is not necessary. You just did, pD. We all know who the blogger is.

    The situation is quite different, because medical experimentation on children of the kind Mary has been carrying out is foolish, whereas following the recommendations of the autism research community can be assumed to be a prudent course of action.

    (Not that I think the evidence base of ABA is of much better quality than that of biomed quackery. It is more substantial in size, but that’s it.)

  26. A quick note by another guest October 13, 2009 at 19:11 #

    Quote :
    Still, whatever you feel about how the information was obtained, it does not make doing medical experiments on a child any more valid. …

    I think most all here agree about the experiments and the controversy .
    There is nothing worse than messing around with bio-meds and overmedicating in other ways – a different but sometimes related subject I am familiar as a concern.
    But I can see some are so passionate against bio-meds they are willing to bypass ethical issues and not consider it important when a stalker does this – they think the message so important it doesn’t matter what someone does, and whether they mix false reporting in with the truth of their favorite hated subject.
    The problem with mixing falsehood with truth is it ultimately discredits the actual point for those less familiar with the subject, and it is important some pointed it out.
    Other blogs are covering the issue sufficiently and staying within ethical boundaries and working to report accurately.
    By overlooking unethical behavior we eventually get other types of false reporing.
    As of now we are getting 1 in 100 statistical reporting for autism. Some are so passionate to get the word out about autism, they are willing to stretch their reporting .
    Does it point out autism exists – sure, but in the long run, it is not a good thing to promote innacuracies just because it gets one’s passionate subject in the headline.

  27. Guest October 13, 2009 at 19:23 #

    “As guest blogger points out, reading some of these groups is an extremely painful experience.”

    I think it is pretty obvious by the tone this so called ” blogger” was in no pain at all.
    In fact, stalkers get a perverse pleasure out of doing this kind of thing.
    They just chose this venue because they could get away with it because there are those here against bio-meds .

  28. Chris October 13, 2009 at 20:02 #

    Guest:

    They just chose this venue because they could get away with it because there are those here against bio-meds .

    Why should people not be against unnecessary and sometimes risky treatments on children? What is to be gained by handing money over to someone to perform medical experiments on children? What is wrong with pointing out that desperate parents are being fleeced by quacks, and their children are paying a price with possible ill effects to their health?

    Many of the treatments on the list are not harmless.

  29. Chris October 13, 2009 at 20:21 #

    By the way, the information was not necessarily obtained by “stalking”. Most of it was obtained on a public forum.

    Even you go not into the archives of the Autism-Mercury Yahoo group you can find many more examples of children be subjected to these medical experiments. There are even public displays of these medical experiments posted on YouTube. I’ve read examples of this kind of medical experiments on other listservs. Even Age of Autism has articles of parents describing the medical experiments that they are subjecting their children to, from various drug treatments to stem cells being injected into children in other countries. Some of these medical experiments were even part a federal court testimony!

    What is wrong with pointing out that these are children, and that using untested and unscientific medical procedures with real risks is wrong? Are you guys just now finding out that there are parents who cringe at the thought of what you people are putting your children through? Is it uncomfortable being under that glare of a light showing the tortures these children must endure?

  30. A quick note by another guest October 13, 2009 at 21:19 #

    Part of the above quote is out of context.
    to point out the context again was – it was intent of :stalking and mixing truth with untruth:…that chose this venue .
    The truth of unnecessary and risky treatments is :not: the intent for choosing this venue – …..that was the :truth: part.

    The :untruth: part was stalking , lack of ethics, and telling falsehoods about other points and misrepresentation .
    As stated multiple times in the posts in which part of the quote was taken – the problem is understood and recognized about unnecessary treatments.
    But, mixing falshoods with that ….to a passionate audience about the subject of bio-meds( and rightly so to be passionate) … unfortunately some of that same passionate audience overlooks other ethical problems in the mix and approves stalking and overlooks misrepresentations.
    Ultimately, people who know much less about all of this subject matter in the end move along with truth and untruth.
    The same pattern has created sloppy diagnostics, sloppy statistics, and rumors about vaccines.
    It is important to stick to the truth the whole way in intent , and stay ethical .

    Why should people not be against unnecessary and sometimes risky treatments on children? What is to be gained by handing money over to someone to perform medical experiments on children? What is wrong with pointing out that desperate parents are being fleeced by quacks, and their children are paying a price with possible ill effects to their health?

    Many of the treatments on the list are not harmless.

    Read more: https://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=3144#comment-66780#ixzz0Tqeoi8T5

  31. Prometheus October 13, 2009 at 21:32 #

    “Anna” comments:

    Sounds like the so called ” guest blogger” is a certified wack job posting people’s personal information on the internet. I am not sure what is worse – getting misinformation on the internet, or posting personal information to defame and slander individuals.

    Anna has it backwards – the person who posted Mary’s “personal information” on the Internet was Mary, who put it on a forum open to anyone who cares to sign up. And, since it was all quoted verbatim, the only person who could be accused of “slandering” or “defaming” Mary would be Mary, herself.

    In a similar vein, pD emotes:

    This didn’t have anything to do with kids, but rather, everything to do with a bitter person trying to dispel their own demons by scavenging through the trash of another parent and vomiting up the self righteous results while pattig himself/herself on the back.

    In both cases, I am reminded of something a lawyer friend of mine was told in law school:

    “If the law is on your side, pound the law; if the facts are on your side, pound the facts; if neither are on your side, pound the table!”

    For all the sound and fury, this is nothing more than table-pounding.

    “Guest Blogger” used the public writings of a parent – without revealing her full name – to make a point. That point – for those who missed it amid the misplaced and/or feigned outrage – was that parents are being convinced, by “biomed” practitioners and even other parents, to give their children unproven, often useless and occasionally dangerous “treatments”.

    “Biomedical” treatments for autism are promoted as mild, generally harmless and very effective. Now – as this ‘blog post reveals – there is evidence, from the very parents using “biomed”, that these treatments are causing harm and – quite frankly – aren’t working. THAT is important news that – for some reason – isn’t getting talked about very much on the “biomed” forums.

    If pD and others think that people who read this ‘blog would be up in arms about someone claiming out that ABA is a waste of time and might even be harmful, they obviously haven’t been reading for long. That topic has come up more than once. Same for medications like methylphenidate (Ritalin) and risperidone (Risperdal).

    The contrast between the relatively mild response to people “trashing” ABA, Ritalin and Risperdal and the spittle-spraying, hair-pulling, frothing-at-the-mouth response to showing evidence that “biomed” treatments aren’t working and are causing serious problems is quite revealing.

    I seriously doubt that any of this pathos is due to concerns for “Mary” or her privacy. I’ve seen the glee that greets skeptics being “outed” on that forum too often to believe that they have a solemn regard for a person’s privacy.

    I also seriously doubt that this has anything to do with “Mary” being “disrespected” – the things that “Guest Blogger” said were far more mild than the language I’ve seen used toward skeptics and other “non-believers”.

    I do think it has a lot to do with people feeling – deep in their “gut” – that “biomed” isn’t as good as they’ve been led to believe. They fear – perhaps subconsciously – that they’ve been duped and they will do what it takes to make those skeptical voices stop echoing their inner fears.

    Think about it – if some stranger wrote in a ‘blog that you were “ruining your health” by drinking tea, or that giving your children milk would “make their teeth rot out and turn them into psychopaths” (BTW, I’ve seen both on the Internet), you’d probably just laugh and move on. Yet, if someone says that “biomed” treatments for autism aren’t working and are causing serious problems in children, based on the reports of a dedicated user of “biomed”, the fit hits the shan.

    Think about it.

    Nobody on this ‘blog has the power to stop a parent from using “biomed” on their autistic child. Nobody on this ‘blog can keep a single parent from discovering “biomedical” treatments for autism on the Internet. Nobody on this ‘blog can outlaw, regulate or restrict the use of “biomedical” treatments.

    So where’s the outrage coming from, if not the fear that faith in “biomed” has been misplaced? With all this heat and smoke, there must be a fire somewhere.

    Prometheus

  32. A quick note by another guest October 13, 2009 at 21:50 #

    “prometheus”
    You missed a lot of the thread – the point was already made that biomeds is a recognized problem.
    Being unethical and stalking , and mixing falshoods with truth, eventually leads to warping the truth of the issue . That does not mean that the issue of bio-meds as a problem is lost.
    Just as there are warped statistics for headlines.
    And because some parents didn’t recognize autism in their children early, it has lead to blown up statistics so those possible others don’t miss it. Some people know they are being unethical by warping things, but they overlook it because they want their issue in the headline. There are other reasons as well, but this is only part of the issue.

  33. A quick note by another guest October 13, 2009 at 21:53 #

    the way, the information was not necessarily obtained by “stalking”. Most of it was obtained on a public forum.

    Stalking is stalking when “some” is obtained on a private and public forum.

  34. Kwombles October 13, 2009 at 22:14 #

    “Stalking is defined as “the willful, malicious and repeated following and harassing of another person.”

    That does not appear to be the case here.

  35. A quick note by another guest October 13, 2009 at 23:17 #

    This same issue has happened on other blogs

  36. A quick note by another guest October 13, 2009 at 23:26 #

    As stated before, details of where else this has occured won’t be discussed here. Anyone who is a responsible website owner can see what is going on at face value, and can go upthread to read my suggestion for a valid email.

  37. Getgo October 13, 2009 at 23:41 #

    As mentioned many times, some of the messages posted WERE NOT on public forums. It was a private forum that never discusses biomedical treatments because the group doesn’t support them.

    It is NEVER OK to pull out private messages onto a public forum. That IS stalking.

    And because “GuestBlogger” mispresents that private forum, it casts doubt on the entire blog, and this site.

  38. passionlessDrone October 14, 2009 at 00:30 #

    Hi Prometheus –

    “Biomedical” treatments for autism are promoted as mild, generally harmless and very effective. Now – as this ‘blog post reveals – there is evidence, from the very parents using “biomed”, that these treatments are causing harm and – quite frankly – aren’t working.

    Can you substantiate that we have evidence of harm as a result of biomedical treatments from Mary’s posts? Which posting constitutes this supposed ‘evidence of biomedical treatments causing harm? How do we know that out of the 3495 posts or so which Guest Blogger decided not to post, there weren’t many where she assigned improvements in her child to biomedical treatments?

    I also note with some amusement how far the singular of annectode slides along the scale of meaningful data when it is in alignment with your position.

    If pD and others think that people who read this ‘blog would be up in arms about someone claiming out that ABA is a waste of time and might even be harmful, they obviously haven’t been reading for long. That topic has come up more than once. Same for medications like methylphenidate (Ritalin) and risperidone (Risperdal).

    It has everything to do with launching a personal attack. I’ve been reading a long time, and I’ve seen a lot of valid criticisms of biomedical treatments; but I have never, ever seen a case of someone so gleefull about a child who continues to struggle. Do you think there is something funny about Mary’s post that opens this thread? Which part? If you knew Mary personally, and she poured her heart out to you, regardless of your thoughts on how she tried to help her child, would you tell this to her face?

    Hows that “biomedical treatment” working out for you, Mary?

    How many times have I seen you type a refrain on the statement that you believe that the doctors and parents involved in biomedical treatments believe they are doing the right thing; but they simply are wrong? Is this the way you would treat a friend of yours who was well meaning, but tragically incorrect? Is this your bedside manner? Is this how you would express your concern for their child?

    Just because you claim to have seen “much worse” in forums where skeptics were kicked out, something I don’t necessarily doubt, only bears importance if we have evidence that the people on this blog are the same ones you saw elsewhere. The fact that the Internet is full of jerks is no reason to become one yourself, or defend one.

    As for the rest of your armchair psychology you’ve got a line and your sticking with it.

    – pD

  39. Prometheus October 14, 2009 at 00:49 #

    Getgo,

    Take a look again at your conception of “private communication”. All of the forums listed, whether “public” or “private”, have thousands of members. I suspect that a lawyer (and even common sense) would tell you that there is no expectation of privacy in such a setting.

    Even private e-mails can be published by the recipient (and have, by a number of “biomed”-friendly ‘bloggers) without violating the law – although it is considered a breach of etiquette.

    “Stalking” is a very specific crime, defined as:

    “Criminal activity consisting of the repeated following and harassing of another person.”

    I fail to see any “repeated following” or “repeated harrassing” in this post. Calling this “stalking” is just another smokescreen to direct attention away from the message and onto the messenger.

    You should also know that accusing somebody of a crime can leave you open to a libel suit. In fact, falsely accusing someone of a crime – even if it is simply hyperbole – is the most open-and-shut type of libel case.

    You might want to consider apologizing to “Guest Blogger”.

    Prometheus

  40. A quick note by another guest October 14, 2009 at 00:59 #

    Hi Passionless Drone and Getgo, here is an important link.
    Anyways, what I wrote above still stands and hopefully someone responsible will show up.
    From the link below, you can see some of the pattern here and elsewhere from before…….

    http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll-tactics.html

  41. passionlessDrone October 14, 2009 at 01:03 #

    Hi Sullivan –

    It is very easy to dismiss a post like this as “trashing another parent” or “self-righteous” or “bitter”.

    I will admit to being riled up. I can honestly say, however, I’ve never seen a parent attacked like that; especially here. I believe, pretty much before my time, Mr. Best attacked Kev in a similar fasion, and that was fucked up and wrong. Maybe it happens all the time in other areas. (?)

    As guest blogger points out, reading some of these groups is an extremely painful experience. Reading about children who suffer repeated adverse reactions to what amounts to poorly thought out, experimental treatments is something very painful for many of us parents to read. In the forums I used to read, parents who participated tended to accept the idea that adverse reactions are some sort of “die off” reaction and/or that adverse reactions are expected as a sign of the therapy working.

    Well, in my case, as I’ve recounted many times, I witnessed a die off reaction in my son, to antifungals. It was a wild few days, and just happened to coincide with the most miraculous change in his (and my) life. He went from being extremely self injurious (30/40 times / day) to once a day, to never in a course of a few weeks after starting Nystatin. I don’t know, our DAN had seen hundreds of children by that time, smelled a bowel movement he took in her office, and immediately declared he had yeast, which was subsequently confirmed by diagnostics. Was it experimentation? I don’t know, but I do know that we went from the absolute darkest place to somewhere where I could see hope.

    Do you have a mechanism to determine that my observation of a die off as a reaction is a drug interaction, but my observations of seemingly miraculous improvements are coincidental?

    It is painful for me to think about parents who don’t pursue safe biomedical treatments, like the ones that I perceive to have changed my son’s life, as a result of a highly skewed representation of biomedical treatments. That bugs the hell out of me, but I’m pretty much used to it. In this case, however, Guest Blogger decided to twist the knive by taunting Saul’s mother.

    You might be surpized to know, that I do believe, unfortunately, the characterization of ‘poorly thought out experimentation’ is accurate in some instances, but in many others, is not. It becomes difficult at this point, as again, we have only a very highly targeted view of what Saul’s condition(s) actually are/were.

    If you think that anyone gets “perverse pleasure” out of this I would first ask “where did you get your mind-reading helmet” and then ask “do you think you can get it recalibrated”. You are way off base there.

    Hows that “biomedical treatment” going, Mary?

    Is this the kind of dialouge you feel I’m not engaging in? You don’t think this is a taunt?

    As far as mind reading goes, Guest Blogger has given Mary a long distance diagnosis of unable to come to terms with her son’s diagnosis and Prometheus believes any opposition to criticism is the result of cognitive dissonance. I would appear to have some company. LOL.

    – pD

  42. A quick note by another guest October 14, 2009 at 01:06 #

    I can easily differ with you on the legal issue and I know first hand that taking emails off of a closed list can be a civil issue in court. It is merely an issue of what the private individual affected decides to do.
    As I advise anyone here if it happened to you personally , keep records if there is a constant trail of this behavior of stalking.

  43. A quick note by another guest October 14, 2009 at 01:09 #

    AS mentioned before, this issue of stalking and taking private emails and publishing them should now be only a discussion with a responsible web owner.

  44. Joseph October 14, 2009 at 01:10 #

    As I noted previously, quoting from the EOHarm mailing list is considered kosher, and members are advised about its status:

    While the EOHarm list is membership moderated, it is a political and public forum. All postings to this list should be considered public, and not private or confidential statements.

  45. Prometheus October 14, 2009 at 01:11 #

    pD,

    Are you aware of who it was that said “How’s that ‘biomedical treatment’ working out for you, Mary?”

    I’ll give you a hint – it was “Mary”, herself. Go ahead, read the post again. It’s a few paragraphs below the long list of treatments “Saul” had received.

    Now, some people might think that you owe an apology to “Guest Blogger”.

    I read “Guest Blogger’s” post and felt that it showed sympathy for the plight of “Mary” and her son.

    Prometheus

  46. Dedj October 14, 2009 at 01:15 #

    Indeed, none of tha accusations of stalking appear to follow any of the contemporary or archaic definitions of stalking. Indeed, if GB had legitimate access to the forums under discussion, he/she would have had to do no more than use the search function. As Mary appears to use the same distinct handle for more or less everything, this would have been a simple matter of a one word search.

    As an aside, I have seen it be alledged that GB ‘exposed’ Mary. Thus far, no google search or otherwise has turned up anything about Mary (not even the original posts) without having to include additional information that was brought to light or directly provided by Mary’s supporters, thanks to the habit of some of them of linking to this thread on replies to her posts. If people have identified Mary using just the information provided by GB then they are either google-geniuses or had prior knowledge of where to narrow the search to, meaning they already had legitimate access to the above forums.

    This is in direct contrast to the behaviour of some of her supporters of collating and cross-posting personally identifiable information with intent that the information be used against that person. This person has received repeated support for that action from several members of several of the above mentioned forums.

    However, spreading rumours about a person over the internet IS defined as stalking in the most recent Department of Justice National Crime Survey.

  47. Dedj October 14, 2009 at 01:40 #

    “I can easily differ with you on the legal issue and I know first hand that taking emails off of a closed list can be a civil issue in court. It is merely an issue of what the private individual affected decides to do.”

    I’m aware of cases where this has happened. However, all cases I’m aware of involved either deliberate redirection of email (as with the Delta Air case), unauthorised access to email accounts (hacking or using someone elses account), violating copyright (as with the Craiglist case) or the emails were obtained through other illict means.

    In all cases, the person was someone other than the intended recipient, or the list was closed by legal agreement (as some of the ones I’m on are), or the list was in no way similar to a yahoo group, in that you email (although yahoo allows you to post directly using the website) the yahoo server but it displays it as a post.

    Not only is it questionable that GB had non-legitimate access to the ’emails’, it’s also questionable that the ’emails’ remain as emails once on the yahoo server, and it’s also questionable that the forums count as ‘closed-list’ given that any message is freely available to any member once on the server.

  48. AutismNewsBeat October 14, 2009 at 01:41 #

    Are you aware of who it was that said “How’s that ‘biomedical treatment’ working out for you, Mary?”

    I’ll give you a hint – it was “Mary”, herself. Go ahead, read the post again.

    pD?

  49. Joseph October 14, 2009 at 01:45 #

    The various “outings” of Orac over at AoA might be considered a form of stalking. Somehow I doubt those complaining in this thread came to his defense. (Not that AoA would’ve published any such comments.)

  50. Getgo October 14, 2009 at 01:56 #

    An anonymous person — i.e. “GuestBlogger” — can’t be libeled.

    And I find it hard to believe than anyone who heard/saw that their posts had been gone through and aggregated in such an egregious manner wouldn’t consider themself stalked and threatened.

    GuestBlogger owes “Mary” the apology, and the members of the NLT board an apology.

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