What would you expect if you gave $1,500 to an “autism” charity

22 Nov

If you do a Google search for SafeMinds the link you get says “SafeMinds Autism Mercury Thimerosal”. SafeMinds considers itself to be a part of the “Autism Collaboration” (which, as far as I can tell, is the group that is supporting Andrew Wakefield now that he has lost his job with Thoughful House). A member of SafeMinds holds a chair on the Interagency Autism Coordinating Committee.

So I think it safe to say that they pitch themselves as an autism charity. If you were to donate, say, $1,560, would you expect some or all of that money to go towards something that might help the autism community?

Well, if you had paid for the the Pass the Popcorn but HOLD THE MERCURY! Safeminds Theatre PSA Campaign that SafeMinds recently put on, you would be mistaken. The campaign was an effort to raise money to put this public service announcement (PSA) into theaters this week.

You can find details, where else, on the Age of Autism blog. If you go there, you will see that three people donated at the $1,560 level, each such donation would put the PSA on 25 screens all week in New York or Los Angeles. Many others donated at lower levels.

The Age of Autism had another fund-raiser recently. That story was met with skepticism even though it was, I have been told, supported by Andrew Wakefield himself. The fundraiser was for legal aide for an autism family. So far, about $1800: enough to put the PSA on a little more than 25 screens. None of the prominent “editors” of the Age of Autism blog came forward in support.

SafeMinds. Age of Autism. At least you know what their priorities are. Autism isn’t number 1, vaccines are.

One might respond that to SafeMinds (and Age of Autism), vaccines and autism are not separate issues. They still subscribe to the idea that thimerosal in vaccines caused an autism epidemic. That by preventing thimerosal containing vaccines being given to infants and pregnant women is, in their view, preventing autism.

To that I answer: why spend money putting the PSA on screens in Los Angeles? In 2006, California law prohibited administering thimerosal containing vaccines to children under 3 and to women who are pregnant. Yeah, they are warning pregnant women and parents of young children against—something they aren’t going to get anyway. But that doesn’t stop SafeMinds from putting an image of a syringe next to big puddles of mercury in front of families.

addendum: it appears that at least one theater chain said no to the PSA.

174 Responses to “What would you expect if you gave $1,500 to an “autism” charity”

  1. Chris November 30, 2010 at 06:07 #

    Trust me, Prometheus, mental illness is painful for the whole family. There were tears at our Thanksgiving dinner. She was a gifted artist, and much of her work hangs in our home. I get a pang of sadness in my heart whenever I look at them.

    I really do wish that Mr. Fryer gets the help he needs, at least for the sake of the family who loves him.

    (I should add, that I thought of her much as I read the latest Nature in the college library today… it was on schizophrenia. Many interesting articles, some on its history, on its stigma, its treatment and one on its history in the DSM, that latter included a bit on autism — that article was by Roy Richard Grinker who wrote Unstrange Minds, a must read from a father of an autistic daughter!)

  2. stanley seigler November 30, 2010 at 06:17 #

    chris say] No, not a personal attack, but a sincere concern.

    if you say so and you do: apologies. didn’t know you and fryer were dear friends…your statement, “you make idiotic claims without evidence and no amount of evidence will penetrate your skull”…threw me off…you are to be congraulated for your sincere concern for a fellow poster.

    [chris say] And, yes, there are public disclosures of death threats to some people like Paul Offit. Some of the more famous threats have been to certain bloggers like PZ Myers

    again apologies didn’t know so many LBRB posters received death threats…i missed any prior reference to death threats…this was the first i heard…oh/and, do paul offit and PZ hide behind pseudonyms too?

    [chris say] How do his rants rank in “science” compared to the list of papers I gave here?

    i dunno…dont do rankings…and sometimes it’s difficult to distinguish between rants, promotional science and science…there are more than enough rants and promotional science on all sides of an issue.

    but why do you bother with one showing various threads of paranoia …seems your sincere concern would be better addressed with compassion for your dear friend vice comment: “no amount of evidence will penetrate your skull.”

    stanley seigler

  3. Chris November 30, 2010 at 07:02 #

    i dunno…dont do rankings…and sometimes it’s difficult to distinguish between rants, promotional science and science…there are more than enough rants and promotional science on all sides of an issue.

    You don’t do “grammar” either. If you wish to be taken seriously you might want to learn about your keyboard’s “shift” key, and how to use an apostrophe.

    Yeah, if a person is mentally ill no amount of evidence of evidence will penetrate their skull. That is an observation, the tone was written in frustration. It seems to apply to you also. If you wish to avoid being shoved in the bin of the “closed minded” it would help if you actually used real grammar and the value of real evidence.

    Read what we write with an open mind. Look up the papers we actually cite (many are available without a pay wall). Learn some basic chemistry and biology, and be able to argue with evidence.

  4. stanley seigler November 30, 2010 at 10:25 #

    [chris say] You don’t do “grammar” either. If you wish to be taken seriously you might want to learn about your keyboard’s “shift” key, and how to use an apostrophe.

    ee cummings, celine and others might have been taken seriously if they had learned aboot the shift key and how to use an ‘…you should have been around to teach em “real grammer”.

    should have known better than get into a discussion with a “real scientist”…who rationalizes personal attacks as a “sincere concern”…

    is your statement, “you might want to learn about your keyboard’s shift key” a “sincere concern” for me to be taken seriously…

    you might avoid rationalizations (sincere concern) of personal attacks and actual personal attacks…ie, avoid ad hominem logic if you want to be taken seriously.

    also you might avoid 2 bit psychiatric evaluation of the mental state of those with different opinions…

    “thats all folks”

    stanley seigler

  5. Gray Falcon November 30, 2010 at 14:40 #

    Mr. Seigler, did you not notice how Mr. Chemist was talking about people being murdered on a grand scale? That’s a claim that requires extraordinary evidence. Evidence that he never provided. Seriously, think carefully before you dash off a response.

    Also, yes, Paul Offit and PZ Myers didn’t use pseudonyms. That’s how people were able to threaten them, remember? Still, if you think I’m a coward for using a pseudonym, you can call me Maxfield Stanton.

  6. Gray Falcon November 30, 2010 at 14:48 #

    For some reason, I can’t edit my old comment, so here’s a more complete version:

    Mr. Seigler, did you not notice how Mr. Chemist was talking about people being murdered on a grand scale? That’s a claim that requires extraordinary evidence. Evidence that he never provided, and in fact, he gave an incorrect account of one accidental death, making it look more sinister than it actually was. Seriously, think carefully before you dash off a response.

    Also, yes, Paul Offit and PZ Myers didn’t use pseudonyms. That’s how people were able to threaten them, remember? And yes, threats have occurred, the universe exists outside of this comment thread. Still, if you think I’m a coward for using a pseudonym, you can call me Maxfield Stanton.

    Finally, the reason we’re asking you to use proper grammar and capitalization is for everyone’s benefit. It’s easier to read your posts if you write them correctly. You’re not e e cummings and this isn’t a poetry festival.

  7. Chris November 30, 2010 at 17:13 #

    Mr. Seigler, you are no ee cummings. And you don’t seem to understand science. So defend yourself with actual evidence in a manner which can be understood, because most of the time we have no idea what you are saying.

  8. daedalus2u November 30, 2010 at 17:28 #

    Mr. Seigler, someone does not need to be one of my “dear friends” for me to be concerned about their well being. I am concerned about the well being of everyone, even people I disagree with. I appreciate that people who are empathy challenged have a hard time understanding that. That doesn’t change my concern for them. I am sorry that is difficult for you to understand.

    Understanding the presence and absence of empathy is related to my nitric oxide research. A lack of empathy is a serious disability, as serious or more serious as any disability related to ASDs. A large part of the curbie mindset is due to curbies being empathy challenged. So empathy challenged that they can’t perceive those they can’t feel empathy for as being fully human. This is extremely unfortunate.

    They rationalize that the reason they feel no empathy for such people is because such people do not deserve empathy. This is not correct. The reason such people feel no empathy for certain others is due to a diminished ability to feel empathy. Just as some people with autism have difficulty with a “theory of mind”, some people have difficulty with a “theory of empathy”. If you can’t feel empathy for someone, the problem is with you, not with the person you can’t feel empathy for. Feeling empathy for someone doesn’t mean that you have to agree with them, or do what they want you to do, but it does require that you understand them on their own terms.

    It is the lack of the ability to feel empathy on the part of the curebies that lets them imagine that death threats against the ND are a good idea, because something you can’t feel empathy toward isn’t a human being, they are a non-human object.

  9. stanley seigler November 30, 2010 at 19:00 #

    [Maxfield Stanton say] Also, yes, Paul Offit and PZ Myers didn’t use pseudonyms. That’s how people were able to threaten them, remember? Still, if you think I’m a coward for using a pseudonym, you can call me Maxfield Stanton.

    noone said anyone was a coward…just questioned the rationalization that pseudonyms were used prevent threats of murder on LBRB. opine: more do with ego and attempts to be cute than threats of murder…

    difficult to believe they are used to prevent threats of murder when most who use them on LBRB have there own site where they are fully IDed.

    oh/and, are PO and PZ using pseudonyms now…it’s a given, there are some legit pseudonym uses.

    as current comments have zip to do with “What would you expect if you gave $1,500 to an “autism” charity”: the end!

    stanley seigler

  10. Gray Falcon November 30, 2010 at 19:18 #

    Mr. Seigler, here is what I got from Googling “Paul Offit” and “Death Threats”:


    And there was a link to someone threatening PZ Myers’ job earlier in the thread.

    By the way, the reason I pulled off the juvenile “Trowa Barton” prank earlier in the thread was simple. You can’t simply take a random person of the Internet at their words, or dismiss them outright, you need to follow up on them and understand what’s really going on. The reason I used “Maxfield Stanton” later on the thread was to see if anyone would fall for the same trick I used earlier in the thread:


  11. stanley seigler November 30, 2010 at 20:42 #

    [d-2u say] It is the lack of the ability to feel empathy on the part of the curebies that lets them imagine that death threats against the ND are a good idea, because something you can’t feel empathy toward isn’t a human being, they are a non-human object.

    nice sermon tho nothing new…marginalizing people…making them non humans…so to rationalize and excuse man’s inhumanity to man has been around for ages…eg, segregation to blacks; nazis did to jews; and a hypocritical society does it the DD/autism community today.

    but OTOH have no idea what your comments have to do with “What would you expect if you gave $1,500 to an autism charity

    in fact see little relevance of many comments to “What would you expect, etc…”

    seems most “scientific” comments are ad hominem crap…eg:

    You don’t do “grammar” either…learn about your keyboard’s “shift” key, and how to use an apostrophe…with various threads of paranoia…he would not know truth if it bit him on his posterior…(these comments relates to what)

    BTW agree with most of d-u2 statements of fact…not with the conclusion/opines…eg, “A large part of the curbie mindset is due to curbies being empathy challenged.”…and “lets them imagine that death threats against the ND are a good idea”


    [Maxfield Stanton say] You’re not e e cummings and this isn’t a poetry festival.

    Now how did I know someone would make that painfully obvious smart-a remark…you owe me for the straight line…

    stanley seigler

  12. Chris November 30, 2010 at 20:48 #

    Mr. Seigler, have you donated to help the Arizona family? It was noted in the above article:

    The Age of Autism had another fund-raiser recently. That story was met with skepticism even though it was, I have been told, supported by Andrew Wakefield himself. The fundraiser was for legal aide for an autism family. So far, about $1800: enough to put the PSA on a little more than 25 screens. None of the prominent “editors” of the Age of Autism blog came forward in support.

  13. John Fryer Chemist November 30, 2010 at 21:42 #

    Hi Stanley Seigler

    Thanks for your support which I thank you profoundly for.

    I did say sticks and stones break bones but name will never hurt you.

    But as you realise this doesn’t advance science.

    Further sad to say anything said here has ZERO value.

    I gave up writing to the governments more than a decade ago as they too are like the people here totally incapable of knowing left from right let alone left brain from right brain.

    In the debacle in the UK they made a monumental error of not being able to tell the difference between a cow and a sheep something a small child can do. It cost the farm industry dear.

    Last year 1 billion was spent on H1N1 vaccines in France and a quick letter by me could have saved this money for evident reasons. In fact a good French government would sue WHO for their money back.

    At present this vaccine with mercury and squalene rest in a SECRET bunker too toxic to dispose of until some suitable 55 million victims will agree to have the stuff pumped into them.

    No one has attempted to support on here the deliberate addition of a brain destroying neurotoxin to a finished and ready for vaccine that is toxic at 200 times the maximum level.

    Daedelus et al claim they have no common ground with me but rest QUIET on the toxic issue.

    It is not debatable if mercury vaccines are harmful or what illness they cause.

    The debate is how can an incompetent government, vaccine regulator and industry get themselves out of the biggest mess in medical history.

    Denial as a tried to say just means the next mess is bigger.

    We saw this with several big wars and today the consensus is to take over countries by hard work, industry and humanity.

    There are notable exceptions though.

  14. Chris November 30, 2010 at 21:57 #

    Mr. Fryer, we will doubt everything you say because you refuse to support them with evidence. For the family who loves you, please go to the nearest outpatient mental health facility for an evaluation.

  15. daedalus2u November 30, 2010 at 22:13 #

    Mr Siegler, except I am not telling you about the mindset of curbies to be disparaging of them or to marginalize them, but rather to be informative because curebies do not understand and do not want to understand the basis of their lack of empathy for people who are ND (even though curebies are ND due to their lack of empathy).

    I do understand the mindset of curbies. That allows me to consider them to be fully human, even as they treat people with autism like non-humans. I appreciate that you are unable to tell the difference and that these fine shades of meaning are lost on you. I understand where that compulsion of denial comes from, from a sense of narcissistic injury. Yes, it is painful when we realize that our icons have feet of clay, and that sometimes we have feet of clay too. The best way to get over that pain is to accept the actual reality of the situation.

    I appreciate that you don’t understand the curebie mindset. Understanding a mindset is best done from outside that mindset. One needs to be able to emulate the mindset so that one can think about the mindset without the mindset interfering with that thinking process. Thinking about thinking is extremely difficult for people who are NT to do. It is difficult because much of NT thinking is done in feelings and emotions, and these cannot be isolated the way that cognitive/intellectual ideas can be. Feelings are much more difficult to think about than facts, and feelings can’t be thought about using logic the way that facts can be.

    NTs are at a fundamental disadvantage compared to ASDs when it comes to thinking about facts using logic. NT feelings tend to interfere and get in the way. This is especially true when it comes to thinking about feelings. Feelings tend to be affected by the person’s emotional state. Facts and logic are not affected by an emotional state. The difficulties that ASDs have with feelings is an advantage when it comes to thinking about non-feelings. I appreciate that most NTs can’t understand how being able to think independently of feelings could be an advantage. You will just have to take my word for it, it is much easier to not make mistakes when you limit yourself to facts and logic.

  16. John Fryer Chemist November 30, 2010 at 22:29 #

    I have had diphtheria vaccines, tetanus vaccines and tuberculosis vaccines. And very thankful for these vaccines with a genuine risk of one adverse effect in 50 million.

    All these are dangerous diseases and my vaccine receiving age was from 6 years to 14 years. Old enough to know how good they were.

    Today these and many more are given several at a time commencing from in the womb to age 6 months before they have time to settle and get used to the world they are brought into.

    When I had my vaccines, there was an obligation for safety and the polluter ie vaccine company paid.

    When they paid for bad vaccines many went out of business.

    Those that were left in my mind were the cowboys ably led by people with no qualifications except how to make money by killing people.

    In this they have to date taken a million in sudden infant death and around ten million minds away.

    And people here who can talk about biochemical reactions, prions and other mythical mechanisms and gene faults that are only understandable to those who issue such rubbish from their mouths.

    Meanwhile people dropping dead and losing their minds are brushed off as unavoidable.

    The problem today with vaccines is

    too many

    too soon

    not safe

    no checking

    Example 22 million vaccines with squalene given to people in nearly every country BUT the USA who had these in the Gulf War.

    Denial of the squalene and of GWS has set up 22 million innocents to be ill in up to 20 years time and the only saving grace is that most of the 22 million are aged 65 or over.

    The attitudes of the vaccine industry in turning the greatest triumph of medicine to the biggest health catastrophe has been unrolling bit by bit since 1990 with NO END IN SIGHT.

    You may note that most countries do not get tuberculosis vaccine and this for example kills more than a 1 000 every year in USA.

    Hospital infections – no vaccines and cant quote the deaths as it will get shot down by deniers here but it is too too too many.

    Where are the vaccines we REALLY need?

  17. John Fryer Chemist November 30, 2010 at 22:37 #

    Hi Chris

    I havent got a family that loves me.

    In 1993 my father and brother in law cleaned out a shed full of insecticides. My dad died the next day.

    My brother in law got a heart attack.

    After recovery his heart was recognised as 100 per cent.

    Impossible to tell which insecticides killed and injured them but of course the death certificate said stroke.

    For my brother in law it was ME.

    And so inconvenient chemical poisoning is yet again denied even without expensive law suits as like the thousand farmers who eventually were told that they abused the law we realised it was pointless trying to tell the obvious to those who wont listen.

    The catastrophes continue apace and most people that get poisoned put it down to the flu.

    Years ago organochlorine toxicity was called polio.

    There are thousands of dangerous chemicals in everyones homes and my own anecdotal evidence for OP’s alone averaged at about three quietly outgassing in everyones home.

    Telling people here about 200x toxic mercury in todays flu vaccine is like talking to a brick wall.

  18. John Fryer Chemist November 30, 2010 at 22:52 #

    To try to get some sense back into what is the problem

    why are millions today with autism?

    For me toxic poisoning is clearly at the heart of this illness.

    People are using some middle age clairvoyant and his notion of


    We have moved on over hundreds of years.

    This is true as a very rough idea ONLY.

    For MERCURY the harm is in the MERCURY and not the DOSE.

    There is no threshold for mercury.

    There is a realistic reference level NOT TO BE EXCEEDED.

    This comes out at various values but that of 0.1µg per kg per day is a start point to work from and reduce.

    So what the 4 X are little babies being injected with 250 times this level.

    ASSASSINATION comes to mind.

    At present called Sudden UNEXPECTED (after 250 times the maximum level of mercury?)infant death.

    Harry Clark took less than 6 hours.

    Karen Wetterhahn took 5 months just to get ONE SIGN of illness.

    And how long was the H1N1 tested for?

    Well was it tested at all?

    I need to get on with things but perhaps as a serious study people should look at Herbert L Needleman building on the 1943 work of Randolph Byers and Elizabeth Lord.

    What Can the Study of Lead teach Us about Other Toxicants?


    In this current debate we seem to fail to recognise any harm in thimerosal despite it having no safety tests ever done on it.

    Work in 1943 showing the ignorance most of us should be ASHAMED of in 2010.

    Only quoted 20 times in 20 years.

    No wonder there are one million dead babies and tens of millions of autism.

    Perhaps we need to learn to read AND understand harm when it hits us between the eyes, in the eyes, ears and head.

  19. John Fryer Chemist November 30, 2010 at 23:06 #

    Hi Stanley Seigler

    Are you from California and with a growing up daughter with autism?

    Perhaps you can share some of her vaccine history with us.

    This blog is really about mercury vaccines and what happens next.

    I am writing here in the almost vain hope that the energy and enthusiasm for the truth may cause some of us even me twice here to review our faulty evidence and home in on what is going on to the detriment of the next generation and many already here but suffering healthwise and money wise.

    I took a gulp when one person not on my list of good people picks up a check for 7 million forgetting the hundreds of thousands on top.

    Andrew Wakefield did not get one penny but has been accused of pocketing 700 000 pounds, such is the rumours that get written in stone.

    More like the people he studied got benefit of these kind of telephone sums.

    My own private studies have picked up huge head expansions after vaccines but of course no one much is looking except to DENY, DENY, DENY.

  20. stanley seigler December 1, 2010 at 02:17 #

    [d-u2 say] I am not telling you about the mindset of curbies to be disparaging of them or to marginalize them, but rather to be informative because curebies do not understand and do not want to understand the basis of their lack of empathy for people who are ND

    d-u2 brings up unrelated issues…then goes on to justify his opine of the unrelated to his make believe curebie…imaginary adversary.

    only to reveal he has no concept of what the curebies community do/dont understand or any insight into their mindset…d-u2 generalizes, attributes his specific experience to the curebe community…i find as many idiots on either side of any issue.

    d-u2 seems compelled to go off on tangents to preach his misguided, paranoid, views of curebies…can anyone explain what any of d-u2’s comments have to do with “What would you expect if you gave $1,500 to an autism charity”.

    tho not on topic, agree with most of d-u2’s comments…but not the conclusion it applies specifically to curebie…it applies to society…those on and off the spectrum.

    agree those on the spectrum have an edge on the not on’s…but not in the areas d-2u espouses…as mentioned elsewhere on LBRB, i though those on the spectrum were a step up the evolutionary ladder.

    sadly the comments on LBRB have given me second thoughts…those on the spectrum are as arrogant and egotistical as we normal idiots.

    as d-u2’s comments have little to do with topic…What would you expect, etc…enough said.

    stanley seigler

  21. Chris December 1, 2010 at 07:07 #

    Mr. Seigler, have you donated to help the Arizona family? It was noted in the above article, a simple “yes” or “no” will suffice:

    The Age of Autism had another fund-raiser recently. That story was met with skepticism even though it was, I have been told, supported by Andrew Wakefield himself. The fundraiser was for legal aide for an autism family. So far, about $1800: enough to put the PSA on a little more than 25 screens. None of the prominent “editors” of the Age of Autism blog came forward in support.

    If I missed the answer in your replies, I apologize. Please just post a simple “yes” or “no”, so I know that you did. I really don’t care if you donated to showing the deceptive SafeMinds video in movie theaters. I just want to know if you care about families with autistic children.

    Mr. Fryer, you need real psychiatric help. Please seek it out. Not for us strangers on the Internet, but for any family that loves you. I say this because you claim to have at least one child.

  22. daedalus2u December 1, 2010 at 14:57 #

    Stanley, if you are not a curebie, then what I have written about curebies does not apply to you. I have a very specific definition and understanding of what I consider to be a curebie. If that definition doesn’t fit you, then nothing I have written applies to you.

    I only know you from what you have written on this board. I have no idea if you are a curebie or not. My goal in writing about curebies is not to denigrate them, but to describe them accurately in terms that are easy to understand, so that curebies can see themselves as others see them, and then decide if they like being the person that others perceive them to be.

    If my description was so over the top that it obviously didn’t apply, then no one would be offended by it because it obviously wouldn’t apply to them. If people are offended by what I have written, they can only be offended to the extent that they think what I have written does apply to them. If you are offended by what I have written about curebies, it can only be because you think the definition of curebie applies to you.

    Many people in the AoA are curebies. Injecting children with powerful drugs such as Lupron with no conceivable rational expectation of improvement is characteristic. Chelating children when they have no known exposure and no symptoms of heavy metal poisoning is another. There is not the slightest bit of plausibility behind either of these treatments. The only reason they can be done is because the curebies doing the treatment put negligible value on the wellbeing of the autistic person pre-treatment.

    The subconscious reasoning of the curbies goes like this; if someone with an ASD is non-human, then any treatment that makes them “human” is worth it, and is worth any side effects and is worth any risk of death or injury. It is like Pascal’s wager, any chance of becoming human is infinitely valuable, it is therefore worth any risk of harm, death or injury.

  23. John Fryer Chemist December 1, 2010 at 15:31 #

    Hi to daedelus et al

    No response to the needleman paper

    No response to the toxicty question of mercury in vaccines

    Plenty of extremely rude comments about me and other persons here that support me.

    Can we think of the half million not so fortunate autism people many of whom by definition cannot lead independent lives.

    Around the world this may be approaching or passing a 100 million and no real idea of the neurotoxins responsible for this man made health problem which is arguably the greatest health issue ever in our history.

    My summing up of the people here is that you are all type 11 error individuals.

    You reject the notion that a mercury vaccine present at a theoretical MILLION times the consensus limit of ALL reputable scientists can possibly cause any SIDS, any autism, any cerebral palsy or almost anything except produce savants and protect from SIDS and autism.

    And most of you wont even recognise your own sense of sellbeing and pride in your own name.

    As to who should see a psychiatrist may I suggest the entire vaccine industry, vaccine regulators and high court judges of the USA who can also reject the theoretical harm from the worlds most chemically toxic element.


  24. stanley seigler December 1, 2010 at 19:13 #

    [d2u say] I have a very specific definition and understanding of what I consider to be a curebie…

    how convenient! YOU define curebie…YOU psycho analize your “curebie…seems it’s all about YOU and your ego…

    am I on the other side of the looking glass talking with Humpty Dumpty, he say: “When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean… neither more nor less.”

    ask NOT answered: what do any of your comments have to do with thread subj: “What would you expect if you gave $1,500 to an “autism” charity”

    that said, as said: i tends to agree with most of your statements re your curebie’s attitude/mindset…generally they apply to society and human nature and are ages old…as believe mentioned, your conclusions/opine specific to curebies are areas of disagreement.

    keep on keeping on…you may change some/a few/one mindset(s)…change human nature…maybe a golden mean out there.

    stanley seigler

  25. stanley seigler December 1, 2010 at 19:24 #

    [John Fryer say] Are you from California and with a growing up daughter with autism?…Perhaps you can share some of her vaccine history with us.

    Moved to LaLa Land in 1968 form GA…heard best autism programs were in CA…not sure about that now…as young parents we were taken in by promotional scientists…as sadly many are today.

    my non verbal daughter…spoiled only child now 45…got the usual VAXes as a babe. I do not believe VAXes caused her classic kanner autism…neith believe VAXesI do believe VAXes could cause/trigger autism in some cases…eg, those with a predisposed genetic condition.

    In my daughter case…believe there is a possible autism link to the 24 hours labor and enormous amount of pain meds given my wife…before the c-section delivery…

    [John Fryer say] Thanks for your support

    i am not a supporter of the anti-VAX position…i just strongly oppose the ad hominem logic used by VAX pseudo scientists…and their deluded denial VAXes might cause autism.

    opine: its a risk/reward evaluation. from a common good view; the VAX reward out weighs the risk. from a personal view…not sure. the personal attack discussions on LBRB do little to provide help in a risk/reward evaluation.

    stanley seigler

  26. Gray Falcon December 1, 2010 at 20:05 #

    Mr. Seigler, are you reading Mr. Fryer’s posts? We aren’t making ad hominem attacks on him, he really is delusional. He talks about how mercury is the most toxic substance on the planet, when botulinum toxin has a lethal dose measured in nanograms. That’s billionths of a gram. And it’s used to treat migraine headaches at even smaller doses. And he has never backed up his statements with direct evidence, even shifting the subject. Please, learn to pay attention.

    Also, if I don’t stab people and take their belongings, that’s good in a common good view, but bad from a personal reward view. Think about that.

    Mr. Fryer, I am autistic, and I live an independent life. Please stop making hateful statements about us.

  27. stanley seigler December 1, 2010 at 20:36 #

    [gray falcon say] We aren’t making ad hominem

    could ref ad hominem quotes…but it would be a waste of time…my opine: in general personal attacks are SOP with many LBRB posters…believe what you want…

    [gray falcon say] shifting the subject

    move the goal post not confined to fryer.

    [gray falcon say] Please stop making hateful statements about us.

    indeed STOP making hateful statements…

    dont move the goal post…dont engage in personal attacks…the results: informative discussions which have a better chance of a golden mean…and a quality life for our children and adult friends…

    stanley seigler

  28. John Fryer Chemist December 1, 2010 at 20:59 #

    Gray Falcon

    There are in the USA one child in three with neurological problems.

    There is no need for most of these if we removed mercury from vaccines.

    You are fortunate to be able to lead an independent life.

    All that aside with only 4 per cent of neurological challenged children truly autistic it is certain as a rule of thumb that errors will occur more often than not.

    There is if you like kudos to be thought autistic rather than cerebral palsy or schizophrenic or in the old days spastic was a much used medical term.

    In my very close area are many who may be loosely called autistic of which none leads an independent life.

    One screams aloud often for long periods of time.

    One is a drug pusher and crook.

    One works but gets 700 euros a month for disability and is very normal nearly all of the time.

    And one is in a home with his parents visiting him several times a week but unable even to support him in their luxury home.

    From this anecdotal information no one who is near this spectrum can really be said to manage without help.

    You wont want to know of many others dying young or living lives while intubated. These are very severe cases where often parents get the blame to cover up for vaccine harm.

    And we know of the few who not only lead independent lives but are successful and rich.

    The truth does no lie at the ends but is spread over a wide base of signs and again giving the lie to genetic or non chemical causes.

    You cannot condense 50 years knowledge into a sentence accurately and you choose to misrepresent and insult my intelligence.

    For the record I say mercury is the most chemically toxic element.

    Since when has botulinum been a chemical element.

    I wouldn’t normally point out a schoolboy error but if you have read my posts and taken them in you may many times have seen me mention for mercury the word ELEMENT and the word CHEMICAL.

    In fact botulinum is also not a single CHEMICAL SUBSTANCE either.

    We are talking chalk and cheese and possibly you need to study school boy chemistry and biology to avoid future confusion.

    Good luck in your studies.

  29. Chris December 1, 2010 at 21:31 #

    Mr. Fryer:

    There are in the USA one child in three with neurological problems.

    You continue to post unsupported delusional falsehoods. Please get some help.

  30. daedalus2u December 1, 2010 at 21:54 #

    JFC, What toxicity of mercury in vaccines? An ounce of tuna fish has as much mercury as a vaccine with a full dose of thimerosal does. Methyl mercury in the gut is absorbed better, reaches higher blood levels and higher brain levels and persists longer than does the same dose of injected thimerosal. Many millions of children consumed many thousands of times more mercury as mercurous chloride in teething powders than anyone has received as injected thimerosal.

    You have no data showing that the thimerosal in vaccines produces any toxic effects at all when injected as a vaccine. In any case, thimerosal has been removed from essentially all vaccines with only traces remaining in flu vaccines.

    No child with autism has symptoms of mercury poisoning. They certainly do not have the most important and diagnostic symptom, an elevated level of mercury. With out that symptom, it is simply false to say they have mercury poisoning. It would be just as accurate to say they have kryptonite poisoning, with a toxic level of kryptonite never being measured.

    If you have some data about actual toxicity of mercury from vaccines lets see it. So far, none has been presented. No one is refuting that lead and mercury are toxic and are neurotoxins. The symptoms of autism are not characterized by neurotoxicity. Being toxic does not mean the same thing as causing autism. Botox is many times more toxic than mercury and is a neurotoxin. Does Botox cause autism? Why is injecting mercury at levels that cause no symptoms bad but injecting Botox at levels that cause local paralysis of muscles good? Why don’t you ask Jenny McCarthy that question?

    There is much more mercury in fish than there is in vaccines. Why don’t you have this diatribe against tuna fish? Every time anyone eats a tuna fish sandwich, they get the mercury of multiple vaccines, and it it is methyl mercury which is worse than thimerosal.

    A billion vaccines at 15 micrograms per vaccine is only 15 kg of mercury. A million tons of tuna at 0.5 ppm is 500 kg of mercury. Which is worse?

  31. John Fryer Chemist December 1, 2010 at 22:09 #

    Hi Stanley Seigler

    I would be more than interested to look at your daughters vaccine schedule if you have still got them.

    45 years makes the year of birth 1965, a time when there were almost NO vaccine problems.

    At this time there were DEFINITE exposures to neurotoxic organophosphates in mattresses and in babies clothing. More clothes than bedding as these came in from around 1969. Treatment with nerve agents up to 10 per cent.

    I have somewhere some information or can get some. TRIS B from memory was one baddy put into babies clothing. As I have siad DENIAL just means moving from one small neurotoxic problem to a much larger one where DENIAL is politically vital.

    Finding a cause is not easy and you rightly mention other causes which cannot be investigated well until we truly get mercury out of vaccines as we have to my knowledge eliminated organophosphate exposure to a certain degree.

    Certainly with much insecticide treatments and flea control for animals for some people and the drugs given to your wife there is so much scope to examine and little chance of correct identification of the cause. Just guesses.

    One feature of mercury vaccines is the increased number of regressive autism cases and classic Kanner autism is NOT regressive and it is claimed that this variety of autism has gone down to 70 per cent of previous levels.

    The main problem in the past twenty years is the advance vaccine schedule, meaning that mercury exposure occurs at birth or at two months when for premature infants, it is a risk too far.

    Looking at weight and autism there is over representation of autism for the very small weight babies and difficult to explain for the very very heavy infant. Too date I have no proper idea for this fact.

    You rightly mention vaccines.

    No one who believes in mercury causes for autism has necessarily any views for or against vaccines and the damning of mercury moms as anti-vaccine is malicious.

    My own view has changed from total belief and confidence covering the period of your daughter, to despair that vaccine makers can put cyanide in their vaccines and escape legal actions. In fact thimerosal is worse than cyanide and the only other thing in common is neither has any known action for good in the body.

    Taking the other view, lots of people who think it is fine to vaccinate and fine to add mercury then in the next breath say they follow their own vaccine schedule rather than the official version. Denying harm but then doing things their own way.

    Apart from people here who just like to be rude or deny anything said, there are possibilities for progress if we put our heads together on this. We don’t have to have the same ideas but we do need to be reasonable. Progress does come from tag fighting as Needleman puts it and does include enormous errors which are not a problem unless we fail to recognise them. No one has yet demonstrated the safety of injecting mercury and nobody ever will. What harm it causes is the issue for it is certain and obligatory to cause harm. That is in the nature of facts and everyone knows mercury is neurotoxic without a single exception.

    But it is sure the authorities treat ordinary people with contempt. Our mercury mothers just ask to be listened to and not ignored. When a child gets a vaccine and goes downhill it is a type II error to say there is no relation and the Needleman paper I put here shows what happens next but we know what happened next when they started adding mercury for one day babies in 1991. There is a very closed circle in the vaccine world with what is known as the revolving door where political correctness leads to industrial top jobs and vice versa. A one off non-payment to Andrew Wakefield is the cause for a 12 year Witch Hunt to push him out of his country and ruin his career while 1 500 pound a day from Monsanto to say nothing bad about GMO crops is ignored by anyone and everyone.

    An adult or even an older infant reacts much better to toxic insult than the one day babe.

    Now that isn’t rocket science but it is to vaccine experts whose next step is always:




    I am talking for myself but I am not antivaccine

    BUT am anti the USA and most Western world vaccine schemes where:

    Vaccine companies get excused any catastrophe that occurs by their hands (in fact this cannot be mandated by NATURAL JUSTICE as we were reminded at Nuremberg).

    Vaccines are introduced without ANY safety testing as recently as last year (2009). The excuse that after that 22 million were SAFELY vaccinated often slides round the death rate to up to 1 vaccinated person in 500. These people would have died anyway. Yes? Like 8 week Harry Clark, healthy one moment and then dead six hours later but guaranteed never to get vaccine preventable illness.

    Repeat vaccines: Charles Richet showed in every case, repeat vaccines cause ALLERGY and ANAPHYLAXIS without EXCEPTION.

    Vaccines for the UNBORN babe or ONE DAY or TWO MONTH infant are too soon and a healthy mother gives her own immune protection until the child has its own strength to fight off infection.

    I just lit a fire which had difficulty taking but once alight almost nothing will put it out unless you stop feeding it with fuel.

    An infant can be judged like this. A very young infant is in need to food and water and to inject a chemical toxic substance and especially an acute neurotoxic poison into the child often before birth is just ASSASSINATION and often that is INEFFICIENTLY done.

    And all of this is not a judgement on the goodness or badness of vaccines but of the goodness and badness of doctors, vaccine companies and those who want to destroy the vaccine industry.
    Or make it rightly feared.
    No vaccine for syphilis – its been around for a long time

    Vaccines for tuberculosis stopped – yet this illness kills more than most other illnesses

    No vaccine for AIDS or SIDA and every reason to believe just one person got the illness from monkey infected tissue used for vaccines eg polio and smallpox.

    Getting rid of a few deaths to put millions of dead in its place.

    I often talk about technology going BACKWARDS.

    Vaccine technology fits this perfectly.

    The safe vaccines of 50 years ago now replaced with some UNSAFE vaccines since 1991.

    And for the record I would agree with you that a vaccine schedule of 45 years ago will not for the vast majority cause autism.

    The other thing is to look at occupations and exposures as this can shed light.

    For example teflon coating firms are not a good place for the pregant mother to work in.

    We live in a sea of drugs and chemicals most of which unlike thimerosal have NEVER been tested for safety.

  32. John Fryer Chemist December 1, 2010 at 23:29 #

    Hi Daedelus

    You make certain errors. I hope they won’t be converted to MISTAKES.

    The mercury in fish has got there thanks to man and his pollution over a very long history.

    We are talking chalk and cheese.

    Of course, eating mercury contaminated fish is NOT GOOD for anyone. Probably contributes to old age degeneration.

    But the problem is not mercury in fish which is another problem, tangentially related at best.

    Also dental amalgams may be more pertinent than tuna fish for causing autism.

    As a side issue, here in France tuna fish tins are so cheap we buy them 50 at a time for next to nothing.

    Why are they so cheap? – Need we ask?

    What toxicity of mercury in vaccines? Your words not mine!

    Well for the adult or even young 5 year old child probably not much that we can measure. This doesn’t mean that it is not toxic. Just we have in place the way of containing them safely.

    The Needleman paper of which I gave the link deals with this much better than I. So I will let you study this.

    The paper for me says, yes, we accept that at certain levels we get toxic harm.

    One measure for mercury is 0.1µg per kg per day.

    The paper also says that because of type II errors, that people telling us 0.01 µg per kg per day are OK, may be right but may be wrong. Lesser amounts may still harm us.

    His view is that there is NO threshold but that harm occurs at any level down to zero. Just man isn’t clever enough to detect it and place cause. Many toxified people never place the blame on toxins but on the « flu ».

    So people get toxified and there is no way of knowing what is causing or even if it has been caused, as all our exposures are well within reference levels.

    To emphasise, we use reference levels but sensibly if we can get lower that is better. To allow higher levels is perverse and can be construed not as a type II error but as FRAUD.

    One mercury flu vaccine has 12.5µg of thimerosal. Calculations tell us that injected into a pregnant mother the levels are several times higher than the maximum reference for mercury. Is this not classic toxicity?

    So when you ask what toxicity I reply several times that of all recognised USA government regulatory agencies is TOXIC and even these prestigious bodies must admit it.

    Vaccines hacks (CDC) try to average out the exposure over months and say it isn’t that much over the limit. This is travesty of the safety regulations. An injection takes say a second. If you perversely use the same logic you get a two and half million bullet of over exposure to a 4kg infant from one mercury flu vaccine. Two people can MISUSE DATA.

    So is that toxic?

    Then of course how do you explain simple facts like one million sudden unexpected deaths.

    Could a spurt of two and half million times a toxic dose cut off life until death intervenes?

    Well for Harry Clark this sudden death arrived in just six hours.

    Then of course tens of millions of autism around the world. How do you explain these?

    Too many unknowns and you and I do not hold any weight with policy makers.

    BUT for me, I demand answers for why perversely we can calculate a bullet of two million times the maximum reference level is injected or even more perversely averaged out over months and no more vaccines and it isn’t that much over the top.

    Can drunk drivers try this to get out of CRIMINAL motoring offences. Of course not.

    Slightly different I am working through some papers using the Needleman idea.

    Pichichero and ten others doing some work on babies. Not sure when the work was done as this guy churns out papers nearly every fortnight. He gives thimerosal the green light by injecting hundreds of one day babies and 2 month old and 6 month babies with mercury vaccines. Published in 2008 Pediatrics 121 208-214. Someone here was saying these didnt exist after 2001, OOPS.

    He gives half lives for thimerosal down to 2 days, making a classic « accidental » type II error that Needleman says is so common.

    Look at the graphs of mercury injections for the three ages and what do you see? The one day baby is glaringly different in their behaviour. If you accept that six months babies excrete all their mercury, then it is IMPOSSIBLE that a one day baby excretes more than 25 per cent of the injected mercury. Is this a cause for alarm? Well it might be if this team thought through their results.

    2ppb in urine

    8ppb in blood


    40ppb in stools

    Compare with 2ppb is toxic waste for example.

    Any signs here for infants overexposed to neurotoxic mercury?

    Yes, but the paper says everything is JUST FINE. Another type II error or fraud?

    So a paper that shows toxic levels in every part examined with 75 per cent NEVER coming out of the most vulnerable infants and the myth that thimerosal is not as toxic as methyl mercury (which doesn’t exist) is put about and recognised by High Court USA judges as the « Gospel ».

    Which of course it is.

    The Gospel of those that deny neurotoxic harm even when it hits a one day child in the arm, leg and eventually the muscles and brain. YUM, YUM; love brains. And only 75 per cent left to destroy them. So much for the myth of the 2 day half life.

    Perhaps if you dispute this you can give exactly the points I fell down on and how I misjudged what to judges is their best weapon to deny thimerosal harm?

    Note Pichichero conclusions trumpets the SHORT HALF LIFE conveniently forgetting the 75 per cent which may well stay in the infant for life albeit just 6 hours for some.

    Further injected toxins are completely different in their toxic or non-toxic action.

    He also puts out the palm leaf when he admits the study is not designed to assess toxicity.

    The paper does add to our knowledge but to rephrase your question.

    What knowledge does it tell us of thimerosal?

    Certainly not that of the triumphantly claimed 2 day half life unless like the epidemiology of Verstraeten it is permitted to forget about 75 per cent of data that is EMBARRASSING.

    Potassium chloride injections kill grown men while eating it make the chips so much tastier. But you knew that didn’t you?

    Also one lady people love to hate did remind us that we go in with barrels full of mercury (from your mercury fish for example) at birth, so any extra may make that barrel LEAK.

    We have never worked out what the neurological consequence of a bullet of two and half million times the maximum of thimerosal does to the one day infant so its open house for guesses but one guess that is almost certainly rubbish is the one of NO HARM.

    But with one million sudden unexplained infant deaths and the case study of mine with Harry Clark and others. I know where one of my hypotheses is going: SIDS, may not be due to changing the angle of repose by a few degrees but may be due to overexposure to neurotoxins such as thalidomide, organophosphate insecticides and good old THIMEROSAL just possibly used at too high a level for some vulnereable sections of children. 2 Million 700 thousand to one even?

    What toxicity of mercury in vaccines?

  33. John Fryer Chemist December 1, 2010 at 23:32 #


    Simple questions.

    What is the rate of neurological long term harm to USA children?

    And what is an acceptable level?

    If you read my own words I say I can’t believe it.

    But I have read it so thats why I write it.

    I am happy to admit my error if you dont take it as gospel.

    One start wuld be to look at drug medications for people with neurological problems. This will frighten most people.

    RITALIN is one drug of which I have known people taken from illness to worse states.

  34. John Fryer Chemist December 2, 2010 at 00:14 #

    Hi Chris

    Long term neurolical problems – children

    That figure of one in three was not made up but here is a quote for 17 per cent or I make that one in 6.

    This is for UNCURABLE cases and my figure mentioned one in three with with long term neurological problems.

    At least 14 million children in this country have a brain disorder for which there is no treatment or cure. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), this figure represents 17% of children between birth and 19 years of age.

    and there are lots of different conditions and from memory again autism is only 4 per cent of this type of illness.

    When I get the one in three I will post it but one in six still sounds too too many.

    As a teacher in England this figure would not be too far from what was referred to as pupils with special needs maybe? For a twelve stream school there would be two such classes at approx half the usual numbers so this comes out at around one in ten.

    Imagine if we identified causes and removed them!

    Leaving neurotoxic chemicals in vaccines wont reduce these numbers of whatever level.

    And remember after being accused of insulting some they are over represented in prison up to ten fold. The question to ask is are they crooks or are they drop outs from a toxic world and forgotten about? I mean what cheaper way of looking after your toxic invalids than accusing them of being villains and banging them up behind iron bars and often in USA putting them outside to save heating bills etc.

  35. John Fryer Chemist December 2, 2010 at 00:45 #

    Hi chris

    Again not exactly the same and still cant find the one in three for long term neurological problems

    but her eis areference to 30 to 50 per cent numbers

    30 to 50 per cent of the population has learning disabilities

    page 14

    Click to access factsandstats.pdf

  36. Chris December 2, 2010 at 01:51 #

    John Fryer listed a source! Not a good one, and he does not understand it. But at least he tried. Let us look at the claims:

    30 – 50% of the population has undiagnosed learning disabilities. (Source: National Institute for Literacy)

    Which is not a the same as neurological problems (despite what the pamphlet says), and in the previous pages is defined very broadly from reading difficulties to problems with math.

    And it gets better because right after the previous line it says:

    As many as 1 out of every 5 people in the U.S. has a learning disability.

    Um, yeah. So it is either almost a third to a half to up to 20%. That source cannot make up its mind. Also, that is just about the 16% of persons who score are one standard deviation below the mean of standard normal (bell) curve.

    Mr. Fryer if you are going to finally find stuff to verify your claims, make sure it actually agrees with itself. Since you just discovered how to use google, go and figure http://www.pubmed.gov. Support your baseless claims with real data.

    Or better yet, find the data before you make the claims. That is much easier than the way you have been doing it.

  37. Chris December 2, 2010 at 05:07 #

    By the way, the current Nature has several articles on schizophrenia, a disorder that effects one out of a hundred. It is also a mystery, and there should not be a stigma.

  38. Science Mom December 2, 2010 at 05:11 #

    I would just like to point out that engaging with Mr. Fryer is bordering on Einstein’s definition of insanity. This is a man who has conversations with himself on EoH. You are providing him with mental masturbation material.

  39. Chris December 2, 2010 at 07:08 #

    Yes, Science Mom, I understand that (though I honestly did not know about the EOH conversations). But I would really like him to get help. The problem with mental health issues include both the stigma attached to them, and the lack of options available (unfortunately the patient much seek them out on their own volition, which is difficult… something of which our family has experienced). Hopefully he can get that, since he is not in the Americas. I also saw a glimmer of hope when he attempted to find references for his claims.

    I also feel for Mr. Seigler. His daughter is close to my age, and it seems he has found a community that might embrace what his family has gone through. I just wish it was not the AoA crowd.

  40. John Fryer Chemist December 2, 2010 at 10:23 #

    Somebody here asked me the half life for thimerosal in the body. One half life is less than ONE HOUR but this has nothing to do with the disappearance from the body but more likely the consequence of a TOXIC, NEUROTOXIC and CARCINOGENIC overload for the one day infant denied milk and vitamins but given an unlimited amount of the chemically the worlds most toxic element.

    Welcome to the 21st century TOXIC world and Mafia run science to PROTECT US.


    Pichichero 2008 Pediatrics Paper

    Makes you think of that expression:

    You can fool all of the people some of the time.

    I have already explained the difference in the various age groups of the injection of a carcinogen and neurotoxic chemical into one day babies in or around 2008 by a « neurospecialist ». Naturally the injection into one day babies is more criminal than injecting into older children where they have a sporting chance of recovery from toxic INSULTS.

    I will not go into the ETHICS of this research except I have described many times that this procedure is ASSASSINATION. Certainly when Andrew Wakefield is taken to task for procedures he never did and are part of the medical arsenal for diagnosis is not the same as injecting TOXIC material into an infant resulting in whole body contamination nearly 5 times higher than what is considered as toxic waste.

    When the realisation that injecting carcinogens and neurotoxins into human beings is not good for whatever reason gets politically allowed by the ruling democratic dictatorships, we can be sure the reputation of Pichichero will remain intact.

    I will examine just two remarks he makes:

    « our measurements are unable to determine the fate of the mercury after it leaves the blood »

    Probably because it would not be politically correct to state what is already known and understood on this issue.

    Studies show that the mercury distributes itself all over the body and for the most part STAYS there FOREVER.

    If he looked at his results he can see this CLEARLY, but again this doesn’t suit his purpose of providing evidence of NONE HARM from chemically the worlds most TOXIC element.

    He mentions half lives of 2.2 days but for the one day child injected recently with this neurotoxin we find that this half life is 3.7 as he admits, which is somewhat longer. As a rule of thumb we use ten half lives for the disappearance event. So after 1 to 2 months we can expect the disappearance from the blood. Well not quite. For there are two other half life events. The first after the moment of injection is a spurt of mercury into the blood and immediately out again. Half life here may be as little as an hour. We can speculate that this may be an efficient mechanism for removal which has been overloaded perhaps. There is also an ominous half life which I measure at around 20 days for the tailing off of mercury in the blood. This means mercury in the blood for months and months.

    Secondly the urine content NEVER exceeds 0.5ppb. Ppb is parts per billion. In other words for the whole month of figures the excretion was never as much as the amount in the blood and the blood levels reached 8ppb or 16 times higher. It seems unlikely even from this work of Pichichero that there is much excretion from the body. He confirms what we know; that the bulk of mercury is retained in our bodies.

    We know also that mercury accumulates and as mentioned here, when the baby gets old enough for his tuna sandwich mercury levels will not go down in his or her life. In fact we know humans biomagnify the mercury turning small exposures into extremely high levels. Levels as high as 20 000 000ppb have been recorded after sudden death events to adults.

    Crematoria, power stations, cement works, incinerators all add to the toxic mercury load we endure.

    His second statement is that:

    « our study was not designed to assess the toxicity of thimerosal »

    The knowledge of the enormous toxicty of mercury is already in the public domain, with several infamous events in recent history where such toxicity has gone unrecognised then defended for more than 50 years. The Minamata mercury toxicity of the Japanese people coincidentally with over representation of autism in that country. At the time of the work, to get recognised the harm done, deaths were the area of dispute and « minor » neurological problems got ignored for the most part. But to say there were no other events is to maintain the defence put up by the government and industry at the time. Most illness events kept from sight as far as practicable.

    Behind every denial comes the potential for the next and more serious event to deny yet again.

    There are already many such events in our past not recognised as mercury related and many that will never be put at the door of mercury poisoning.

    The very first UK mad cow was officially put down as probable MERCURY POISONING. Long since covered up and hidden from most public gaze.

    The neurological consequences of syphilis have been put down to the MERCURY drugs and not the illness. Another unresolved problem.

    The ozone hole itself has been long discussed and the present theory of CFC’s cannot as admitted account for all of the process or even the sudden changes from year to year or the maintenance of the hole as the levels of CFC plunge. Mercury over the poles provides a perfect and complementary hypothesis and at present we seek to increase the effect.

    When the causes are multiple this gives unlimited scope for sleights of hand and incredible research none bettered than Verstraeten who by eliminating 95 per cent of the autism cases bringing in dubious results, getting rid for the most part of the state run system and reworking the figures 6 times or more came up with remarkable result that a brain destroying thimerosal added to the finished vaccine solely to save money would actually make the toxic injected person more intelligent.


    You can fool all of the people some of the time

  41. John Fryer Chemist December 2, 2010 at 10:31 #

    Science mom


    Yes, a very good forum with more than a thousand who subscribe to the view that a toxic and carcinogenic material should not be part of any WELL centre or HEALTH CARE programme.

    No mention of vaccines here! That is a different issue.

    Injecting toxins into unborn babies is ASSASSINATION.

    Lets call a spade a spade.

    After 50 years looking at chemicals and health I do pull things from my head and sometimes they are unbelievable even to me.

    And that quote is from the net but may or may not be true. Certainly the CDC put so many different neurological illnesses out there it would take a year to count them and see what they are.

    But I still DONT BELIEVE that they inject any mercury into any human or have ever done that.

    For this reason I may seek help but in my own masturbating world I do have this DELUSION if you like that people do inject poisons deliberately at huge levels to make people WELL.

    My new delusion is that the country that makes these poisons is now trying to stop poisoning their own nation and shipping it to every other country and telling them how good it is but we won’t use it.

    Can you explain if this is delusion please?

  42. John Fryer Chemist December 2, 2010 at 10:35 #


    You mention that you DONT KNOW.

    This is the crux of the problem and I admit there is a lot


    I can recommend you subscribe as at the moment it is in a poor state with no proper discussion scientific or attacking the personality, ability and even origins of those participating.

    We would welcome your INPUT and everyone else here.

    It could do with LIVENING up.

    It is a YAHOO GROUP

  43. stanley seigler December 2, 2010 at 19:22 #

    [Science Mom say] This is a man who has conversations with himself on EoH. You are providing him with mental masturbation material.

    this man is not alone in conversing with self…many LBRB posters move the goal post; bring up unrelated personal attacks; make up their own facts re the unrelated issue; diss the adversary; rationalize the attack, eg, as sincere concern; then opine on these unrelated issues with their ego…eg;

    how do any of the recent posts here relate to the subj of this thread: “What would you expect if you gave $1,500 to an autism charity”…and;

    difficult to relate “sincere concern” with statements like: “no amount of evidence will penetrate your skull.”

    stanley seigler

  44. Science Mom December 2, 2010 at 19:54 #

    Concern Troll is concerned. Mr. Seigler, comments on a blogpost often meander away from the topic. Furthermore, when one engages someone like Mr. Fryer (I simply can’t waste the time anymore), it is not so much for his benefit, because he will never grasp evidence contrary to his own biases, it is more so for others reading that may not be participating. Now what have you added that makes you believe that you have offered anything substantive?

  45. stanley seigler December 2, 2010 at 21:10 #

    [Science Mom SAY] Now what have you added that makes you believe that you have offered anything substantive?…

    thanks for confirming my opinion that posters make up facts and people’s beliefs…eg, I have not now nor never said/believed I added anything substantive…

    [Science Mom SAY] comments on a blogpost often meander away from the topic…

    so makes it right…people are often murdered in detroit…so it’s OK to murder in detroit.

    [Science Mom SAY] Concern Troll is concerned

    perhaps a facetious comment but…your opine…not mine…nor in context of posts to this thread…nornor by one definition: “Concern Troll, a person who is viewed as insincere and condescending” [NOT CONCERNED]

    stanley seigler

  46. Gray Falcon December 2, 2010 at 21:21 #

    Stanley, have you been reading what Mr. Fryer is saying? Here’s another one: “Years ago organochlorine toxicity was called polio.” No evidence, just another thing he believes to be true without evidence. He’s been making similarly paranoid claims the whole thread. Of course people are going to question his sanity. Claiming that’s an unfounded attack either comes across as 1) grossly insincere, or 2) so oblivious you wouldn’t notice being on fire. I’m guessing the second.

  47. stanley seigler December 2, 2010 at 22:44 #

    [gray trowa stanton say] Of course

    wow, so many confirmations of my opine many LBRB posters make up facts…eg, you know “of course”

    how yo know…

    the subj of this thread should be “meander away” or “whatever”…forget the “if you gave…part.” in that light the below ref is posted for the true believer pseudo scientist (PS) who KNOWs there is NO link to consider:

    do you ever have a thought there may be a link…research makes long held “truths” not true, eg, the sun revolves around a flat earth and a lil more recent:

    Researchers discovered microbes that are able to subsist almost entirely on arsenic, a finding that may be the first exception to the formula long thought to govern the basic chemistry of life.

    btw, i have a sincere concern that the PS doesnt fall off the edge of the universe…

    stanley seigler

    ps. gray, thanks for NYT link: Dr. Offit is the co-inventor of a vaccine against rotavirus…of course, no VAX bias here.

  48. Gray Falcon December 2, 2010 at 23:08 #

    Stanley, the reason why scientists were able to find that was due to physical evidence, not just the word of some guy on the internet. Say what you will about Dr. Offit’s biases, but he has provided physical evidence showing the link to be bunk. That’s all there is to it.

    Also, you were given a chance to bring the thread back on topic, you passed it up to whine about how mean everyone else is.

  49. stanley seigler December 3, 2010 at 00:17 #

    [gray say] Say what you will about Dr. Offit’s biases, but he has provided physical evidence showing the link to be bunk. That’s all there is to it.

    say what you will, the tobacco industry’s tech staff (drs and scientists) provided evidence nicotine was not addictive…for decades tech staffs of companies that used asbestos in their product proved asbestos did not cause cancer…oh/and BP tech staff said Hg harmless then removed from their VAXs. and you might want to consider what ms dawson says re promotional science.

    [gray say] you were given a chance to bring the thread back on topic, you passed it up to whine about how mean everyone else is.

    wowwow more confirmation some LBRB posters make up their facts…eg, i never said nor implied anyone was mean only that ad hominem logic was used…

    my whine was an attempt to get back on topic…it was met by attacks on me…and a rationalization the personal attacks were sincere concern.

    stanley seigler

  50. Gray Falcon December 3, 2010 at 00:59 #

    Again, prove that Dr. Offit is lying. Don’t just make accusations. Mr. Chemist has claimed that there are hundreds of people being murdered, but without any evidence, there’s nothing to prove that they really aren’t accidents. Then, there’s the fact the Dr. Offit doesn’t comprise the entirety of the pro-vaccine groups, but several others, as well.

    Also, here’s the line you missed: Mr. Seigler, have you donated to help the Arizona family? It was noted in the above article, a simple “yes” or “no” will suffice.

    Finally, I have been directly quoting Mr. Chemist from this very thread, please don’t accuse me of lying in a way that is so stupidly false.

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