Poul Thorsen was a key person in setting up a CDC funded team to perform epidemiology in Denmark. He has recently been indicted for wire fraud. Below are some of the key parts of the indictment which I feel will be of interest to the discussion:
Count
Aarhus University and Odense University Hospital administered the CDC grant under the direction of a principal investigator, who was assigned scientific and administrative oversight.
Count Paragraph 6 starts with:
In 2002, after CDC awarded the grant, defendant THORSEN went to Denmark and became the principal investigator, responsible for administering the research money awarded by the CDC to Denmark.
So, at least according to the Grand Jury that indicted him, Poul Thorsen was the “principal investigator” and was assigned “scientific and administrative oversight”. I bring this up because the question posed by many is “how much was he able to influence the scientific results?”. I can’t find the comment right now, but I do recall one collaborator (I believe Madsen) stating that Mr. Thorsen did not have the ability to
From Count Paragraph 8 we get some details as to how the scheme was allegedly pulled off:
“The invoices falsely claimed that a CDC laboratory had performed work under the grant for which Aarhus University owed money.
I.e. he told his University in Denmark that the CDC was doing some of the work and that money had to be transferred back to pay for that. But, it appears that the money was transferred into personal accounts belonging to Mr. Thorsen.
Now, here’s the part that’s going to get a lot of speculation going.
On or about the dates set forth below in the Northern District of Georgia and elsewhere the defendant! POUL THORSEN aided and abetted by others known and unknown to the Grand Jury and for the purpose of executing the aforementioned scheme and artifice to defraud, transmitted and caused to be transmitted by means of wire communication in interstate and foreign commerce, writings, signs, signals, and sounds, that is, wire transfers ln the following amounts from accounts held by Aarhus University in Denmark to accounts held by defendant THORSEN at the CDC Federal Credit Union Atlanta, Georgia:
aided and abetted by others known and unknown to the Grand Jury
Many will ask “were members of his scientific team involved in the money transfers?” Some will just assert it as fact.
Note that the dates involved are from December 2006 to October 2008. This is long after the main autism/vaccine studies were performed. However, if true, these charges do show a man of low personal integrity. This will be used to question his work. However, the fact remains: his work has been replicated. Take the studies from his group out–discard them entirely–and the story remains the same: neither thimerosal nor the MMR vaccine caused an autism “epidemic”. The risk of autism is not higher for those who got vaccines with thimerosal or the MMR vaccine.
Left Brain Right Brain 
On or about the dates set forth below in the Northern District of Georgia and elsewhere the defendant! POUL THORSEN aided and abetted by others known and unknown to the Grand Jury.
That’s legal boilerplate, leaving the door open to indict anyone who knew about the money scheme that they find later.
Tsu Dho Nimh,
I sort of figured that was boilerplate. The idea that there are co-conspirators didn’t need the indictment, and it won’t go away if none are found.
Sorry for the mixup on paragraphs and counts. I should have posted the indictment. Here it is. The other documents in the docket so far are basically short orders to issue an arrest.
heh. though I can tell you, from personal experience, often the accusations listed in court really have nothing to do with what one is charged with.. and they are just that, accusations, until the allegations are proved or a guilty plea is received…
OOPS!”Count 5 of the indictment reads:” … Kev, that is NOT “count five”. That is paragraph five, in the section where an indictment lays out their facts in numbered paragraphs.
His lawyer will respond by going paragraph by paragraph and either stipulating the accuracy or disputing the accuracy of each paragraph.
The actual indictments are on page 5 (the 13 alleged instances of wire fraud) and page 7 (9 alleged instances of money laundering).
I think this is what you were looking for Sullivan: http://articles.philly.com/2010-03-12/news/24957241_1_mmr-vaccine-vaccine-link-autism
“aided and abetted by others known and unknown”
This is where I expect charges to get hard to prove, as it would be very easy for Thorsen and his subordinates to blame each other. In terms of professional responsibility, however, things can probably be boiled down to, “Either they knew, or they didn’t want to know.”
They are all distancing themselves from Thorsen minimizing any contributions he has made to autism research. Prior to the allegations that were publicized a few years ago, Thorsen was considered to be opeating at the highest levels of autism research and as such he was named to APA’s working group on the developmental disorders entrusted to be a key contributor to the eventual publication of DSM-V. This working group is a who’s who of behavioral geneticists.
When the allegations surfaced he was forced to resign from the APA’s working group on the PDD’s. Hardly the resume for what everyone involved in any research projct he was involved in and who now are dismissing Thorsen contributions to any study he co-authored little or nothing to the papers he co-authored, a phenomena also known as covering your a***.
Click to access 08-28%20-%20DSM%20WG%20Press%20release%20FINAL%20with%20TF%20and%20WG%20list.pdf
RAJ,
I am not minimizing his contributions. Mr. Thorsen was a author.
He did not write the papers. It also looks like he did not do the data analysis. It would be very difficult for him to insert fraudulent data into the papers. Also, I will repeat, his team’s studies show the same thing other groups show: a lack of association between thimerosal and MMR with autism. Disregard his team’s studies and you get the same answer.
What I read in you comment is an attempt to attack the DSM-V committee. Let’s see–they found out Mr. Thorsen had ethics questions and they (the working group) dropped him immediately. Sounds like the right thing to do. That isn’t covering your ass. By stating that, you are implying that they knew of the possible misconduct when he was assigned to the working group. If you have evidence of that, I (and a lot of other people) would love to see it.
RAJ, The authors of the Hviid and Madsen studies did not retrospectively minimise Thorsen’s contributions to their studies. You can see that for yourself by his rank in the author listings. Thorsen may be a financial fraud but let’s keep it to the facts okay?
Dear Sullivan
” his team’s studies show the same thing other groups show: a lack of association between thimerosal and MMR with autism. Disregard his team’s studies and you get the same answer.”
then if Thorsens work is shown to be tampered with and a fraud so are all the other studies?
Sincerely
Sniffer
“then if Thorsens work is shown to be tampered with and a fraud so are all the other studies?”
Doesn’t logically follow.
@David N.B. I came late to this story. You wrote this:
“I have no doubt there is a lot more to this story. I would not even be averse to speaking of a “coverup”. (I was the one who had to wait more than a month just for Aarhus to answer my questions about whether a document was actually theirs!) But I don’t see any need to search for any motive for any party except varying combinations of greed, incompetence and cowardice.”
On a thread that got sniffed to death:
https://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2011/04/poul-thorsen-indicted/#comment-160773
Is Thorsen facing charges in Denmark? The CDC and US end of the research agencies seem to be acting transparently, but is there some indication of the university involved attempting to cut Thorsen loose without revealing what actually happened? I imagine it wouldn’t be a good look for grants across the board, having a senior researcher pocketing the money.
Big Pharma can’t be paying too good these days, if pharma shills of this status have to engage in fraud in order to gain roughly a million dollars (chickenfeed for big pharma, surely).
Actually, if AoA REALLY believed that dirty big pharma money were involved in buying off research, now would be the time to investigate as the books are likely to be opened for the whole research team.
Especially for the studies prior to 2002, like the list of studies in this archive between 1998 and 2001. The countries included in the studies were the UK, USA , and Finland. Sniffer is trying to distract, and is actually making even less sense.
Dear Sullivan,
I ask the question again as I dont remember putting in”so”?
Dear Sullivan
” his team’s studies show the same thing other groups show: a lack of association between thimerosal and MMR with autism. Disregard his team’s studies and you get the same answer.”
then if Thorsens work is shown to be tampered with and a fraud are all the other studies?
Sincerely
Sniffer
No.
Dear Chris,
Can you explain please .
Thank you in advance
Sincerely
Sniffer
Actually it is up to you to explain what evidence you have that the researchers in the UK, USA, Finland, Canada and Japan are all corrupt. It does not follow that if Thorsen committed financial fraud that everyone committed scientific fraud, especially those that date before the Danish studies were published.
You should be able to find that evidence right next to the two studies that completely replicated Wakefield’s now retracted Lancet paper.
Dear Chris,
Thank you for your reply.Could you elucidate , all I am politely asking for is a simple explanation to your “No” reply.
Sincerely
Sniffer
There is no data to support your contention, hence the “no.”
If you wish to continue to contend that because one person committed finanacial fraud, then everyone else committed scientific fraud: then you must provide the evidence for each and every study.
I believe English is not your native language, so it would help perhaps if you picked up a basic logic book in your own language. Then read that because A happened, that a totally unrelated B also happened is not logical. You are making a hasty generalization fallacy.
Also, you need to learn there is a difference between these two English words: financial and scientific.
Dear Chris,
Thank you for pointing out the diffrence as I do get confussed with some words.
I shall come back in a short while.
Unitl then .
Thank you
Sincerely
Sniffer
AoA receives income from advertising placed by Stem Cell Institute, website: http://www.cellmedicine.com – I suggest people check it out. Why did the company leave Costa Rica? The page promoting their therapy for autism lists one scientific paper in support. The link on that page doesn’t work. But this one does:
Click to access Stem-cell-therapy-for-autism.pdf
Check how many Wakefield co-authored papers are cited, including the withdrawn Lancet report.
Did Poul and colleagues do their research work while out for a spin on a Screaming Eagle Fatboy Harley?
Click to access ThorsenIndictment.pdf
Mr. Thompson, how much of Thorsen was in the two papers? How does that affect the results of the papers listed here?
Dude, do you actually read this blog? Really?
Dear Chris,
As before Thorsen has his name on the studies paid for by the CDC as yesterday the integrity of the CDC is zero as is Thorsen who has sold his sole.
Oh! and by the way,
Dr. Max Wiznitzer: ‘If you can’t trust the integrity of the researcher, you can’t trust the research.’
AUTISM EXPERT AT MC!!!!
http://www.mariettatimes.com/page/content.detail/id/534965/Autism-expert-at-MC.html?nav=5002
Sincerely
Sniffer
Once again Sniffer, please point out how Poul Thorsen’s financial fraud affected the integrity of the studies which he didn’t work on, that also found no link between MMR Vaccine and autism.
Dear Brian,
Thorsen is just the tip of the black iceberg more to follow when Thorsen and the fat lady sing in court if the US don`t bump him off with a heart attack first
.
When the heavies from lbrb rounded on me a list was available that Chris links to above the AAP.
Thorsen sold his soul when he put his name on the paper and gave the CDC what they wanted to hear along with previous papers.
When you have sold your soul where do you go from then on ?
If you go to the very first study from Poland (Budzyn) Sullivan admitted it as JUNK..
https://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2009/12/study-shows-lower-autism-rate-in-vaccinated-kids/
Sullivan says..
“If you look at only the kids who were never vaccinated for Measles—8 children (8%) in the autism group were never vaccinated for MMR. Only 1 in the control group (0.5%). If one were to use those numbers alone, the uncorrected “odds” of autism associated with MMR would be 16:1.”
]
I’m afraid if you are waiting for me to spill the beans on what Thorsen is going to say you will have to wait for Thorsen to sing himself.
It could be that it involves the highest echelons of the CDC interesting hard drives kicking around these days..It could be he was in tandem with someone at the CDC?You write this we will pay this and that to such and such an account ,who knows? One can only speculate.
Sincerely
Sniffer
Sniffer,
when you claim that I said things that I clearly didn’t, I can only assume that you are trolling. I didn’t say the study was junk. The rest of your conspiracy theory post I’ll let stand on it’s own. I couldn’t have made up something as bad as “Thorsen is just the tip of the black iceberg more to follow when Thorsen and the fat lady sing in court if the US don`t bump him off with a heart attack first” had I tried.
So I wonder why this troll keeps getting fed?
Sharon,
That’s trolls. They ramp up until they get a response.
Dear Sullivan,
I am sorry I never meant to write you said. Although the warning of a Junk research study is in the words you choose. Unless you can elucidate the words you choose differently than I can decipher them..
Yours Sincerely
Sniffer
I only responded to make sure no one lurking could take him seriously, and to remind him when he is off topic. I have no idea what he means by “Chris links to above the AAP”, since I linked to lists of papers that were not by Thorsen or show papers prior to the Danish papers.
Chris:
Burbacher et al is missing from the lbrb list.
Pichichero et al (see “Mercury levels in premature and low birth weight
newborn infants after receipt of thimerosal?containing
vaccines” 2009) injected newborns with vaccines with thimerosal preservative that resulted in an average of 3.6 parts per billion mercury in blood levels.
However, Burbacher used infant monkeys and found an average brain-to-blood ratio of 3.5 and about 1.0 for inorganic mercury that stays in the brain (for infant monkeys).
So one could infer Pichichero’s research resulted in about 3.6 parts per billion of inorganic mercury in the childrens’ brains from Thimerosal preservative.
So Thorsen allegedly stole, Pichichero injected newborns with vaccines with mercury, and Dr. Wakefield did what?!?
Mr. Thompson, did you read the question? I asked “Mr. Thompson, how much of Thorsen was in the two papers? How does that affect the results of the papers listed here?” Was Thorsen an author on the two studies you highlighted?
In other words: do not change the subject or post off topic.
re: “how much of Thorsen was in the two papers?”
Ans. Just enough to question the integrity of all the work.
Look at the Fat Boy Screaming Eagle Harley reference in the indictment.
“Count 14, 5/30/2006; Withdrawal by personal check from CDC Federal Credit Union (FCU) account no. ending 3353; $33,994.57; Payee: Stone Mountain Harley Davidson, 2006 FLSTFSE2 Harley Davidson motorcycle [aka Fat Boy Screaming Eagle Harley].
And the reference to EASY RIDER is a metaphor that represents all the CDC research funds that went through Thorsen.
Oh, it was a movie reference. Well I guess it was clever then.
The movie reference or the CDC check made out directly to Stone Mountain Harley Davidson?
re: “Take the studies from his group out—discard them entirely—and the story remains the same: neither thimerosal nor the MMR vaccine caused an autism “epidemic”.”
One must ask then, how many other researchers are lining up to the CDC trough for their “Harley”?
@ Sullivan, yes they do ramp up in order to get a bite, which is why ignoring their posts is so effective. It’s always interesting to see how lathered up they can get before they slink off.
Or post off topic. I still don’t see how a reference to a movie I have never seen dismisses all of the studies done in several countries with hundreds of thousands of children that show there is no correlation between autism and vaccines.
Also, Mr. Thompson, I have no desire to repeat anything that transpired here. Therefore you will be ignored unless you post on topic with something that adds to the discussion.
April 21st, I posted this:
“AoA receives income from advertising placed by Stem Cell Institute, website: http://www.cellmedicine.com – I suggest people check it out. Why did the company leave Costa Rica? … ”
The advert from Stem Cell Institute disappeared overnight last night. Not enough AoA readers booking autism stem cell tourism treatment I guess.
I wonder if AoA do an origin check on the supplements they flog. Chris put up a link recently showing spending on big pharma products. ‘Vitamins and minerals’ were right up there – more so than vaccines. IIRC from research I did a while ago, Sanofi -Aventis has no less than four subsidiary CAM companies flogging herbs, vitamins, and sugar pills. Many of these produce products under other labels for third companys.
Frankly, big pharma are caught between a rock and a hard place – they can’t find a cure for cancer yet so the wingnuts accuse them of deliberately concealing a cure so that they can flog off lucrative cancer treatments.
Now with vaccines on the other hand, they do have a preventative, which will cost them, a small fortune. For every two kids vaccinated (assuming 50% of kids will contract the airborne diseases) big pharma have done themselves out of the opportunity to sell analgesics, antibiotics, critical care meds like saline and the like, and even OTC tylenol and vitamins/herbs/sugar pills. The next idiot who claims that big pharna makes money out of vaccines should be required to provide a comparison of costs of vaccination against costs of NOT vaccinating.
Hey, after years of myths about how big Pharma were deliberately not addressing cancer prevention. So the they come up with Gardasil. Now they are foisting another evil vaccine on our children, all for (gasp, sigh) profit.
I would like to take bets on which situation makes Big Pharma more money. I do not think it is vaccines.I am off to see if I can buy shares in sugar pills. Got to be good for you.
WHO warns of enormous burden of chronic disease
http://uk.mobile.news.yahoo.com/22/20110427/tsc-uk-disease-who-011ccfa.html
2 hours 5 mins ago
Kate Kelland, Health and Science Correspondent
Chronic illnesses like cancer, heart disease and diabetes have reached global epidemic proportions and now cause more deaths than all other diseases combined, the World Health Organisation (WHO) said on Wednesday. Skip related content
Mc D and all Pharma have cured nothing just go on You Tube see the total annihilation of peoples lives thanks to Pharma`s corrupt vaccines and drugs.Your all out of date on here you need to keep up with the new medical sources such as You Tube real people cured with stem cells,real videos, no corrupt studies,no corrupt scientists,no corrupt medical advice,no corruption just good advice by sufferers.
Chris, Thorsen did for the CDC obvious wasn`t it.
Sincerely
Sniffer
Off topic troll is off topic. Those are diseases of the elderly. Living past age 70 is getting more common because death from disease is less common.
Count 14 of the Thorsen indictment is certainly on topic. Whether Thorsen was a loner or a kingpin in this alleged corruption scheme remains to be seen. So long for now.
Jim Thompson,
and if this were a “true crime” blog that would be a wonderful thing to speculate upon.
Are his team’s conclusions sound? Yes. They have been repeated.
Dear Sullivan
“Are his team’s conclusions sound? Yes. They have been repeated.”
It’s collusion financial fraud,vaccine fraud , and political corporate killing by the CDC all wrapped up in a nice little package.
Of course nothing to worry about.Does the CDC have blamnket immunity from corporate killing legislation?
Yours Sincerely
Sniffer
“It’s collusion financial fraud,vaccine fraud , and political corporate killing by the CDC all wrapped up in a nice little package.
“Of course nothing to worry about.Does the CDC have blamnket immunity from corporate killing legislation?”
That a pretty serious allegation, sniffer, whoever you are. Why don’t you post it on CDC’s own blog?
http://blogs.cdc.gov/
Or even better, just move on over there?
Brian Morgan,
“Why don’t you post it on CDC’s own blog?”
Because no one would likely respond there? No fun trolling there. Just a guess.
Dear Brian,
You give them the good news with both barrels,be my guest.
Sincerely
Sniffer
@Sniffer,
How exactly do you come up with the CDC involved? As I have already pointed out, the CDC’s main reported “contribution” to this mess was NOT paying for the grants that Thorsen is accused of forging in their organization’s name. Thus, if anything, the CDC is the party with the strongest claim NOT to be on some level to blame for misconduct by Thorsen and/or others.
Also, I have done a fair amount of reading on research fraud among scientific professionals, and it is my longstanding and strongly stated opinion that some scientists are predisposed to fraud whether there is potential for monetary gain or not. So, if Thorsen’s honesty as a contributor to research is going to be the question, I see no reason to CARE whether he made money in the process.
It’s a very serious allegation. Not one I would wish to add my name to, thanks very much. Sniffer clearly will not stand by what he/she/it claims.
I’d be concerned if this were a blog I was running that CDC might want to see the source of the postings from sniffer if they learned about (if they care a toss what these irrational anonymous people write). I understand this blog is hosted in the USA – pretty easy for them to do it really. It’s no so much particularly what sniffer is saying, but the effect this widespread opinionated and unscientific discourse is having on public health.
Freedom of speech/First Amendment privilege is one thing, but this kind of libellous assertion is not what the founding fathers had in mind, in my opinion.
Brian Morgan,
If the CDC has done nothing about some blogs whose main content is such accusations against them, I doubt they will act here.
As you can now see, the CDC isn’t the real target. Besides being a classic troll, the “logic” is clear. The CDC is evil. We are basically the CDC. Therefore it’s a way to insult us indirectly.
The problem with sock puppets is that throw away identities are free on the Internet. Ban one and another appears.
Dear Sullivan
I thought this was the de-facto site for the CDC,APP et-al
Yours Sincerely
Sniffer
I just like the idea of the FBI/SOCA or similar turning up at their door and taking their computers away – and wondering what else they’ll find on them.
Read this:
“Apr 24 2011 Exclusive by Lauren Crooks, Sunday Mail
THIS is the moment when police seized a suspect accused of the internet hate campaign against bomb-threat Celtic boss Neil Lennon.
Officers swooped on the home of Stephen Birrell, 27, in a dawn raid yesterday as they hunt the bigots posting sinister threats and abuse on message boards.
He was led away in handcuffs from the house as officers seized his mobile phone and laptop computer.”
Good name for the reporter eh!
This is the news report URL.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2011/04/24/cops-swoop-on-old-firm-hate-suspects-in-dawn-raids-86908-23083634/
Dear Brian,
That’s an own goal .On here I could site all the abuse I have had, all the abuse Brian Deer fired at disabled children and parents .Lbrb is I believe known for its hatchet jobs on anyone supporting any non pharma medicine I can’t say I’ve been chopped up yet .
The foot ball I googled it and Celtic and Rangers are known for its divides and the matches are known as “psychos day out” . That said 99.9% will be normal supporters .Jock Stein the greatest manager Celtic ever had
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_prem/9413483.stm
“Jock Stein used to observe that it was the West of Scotland’s release valve and that, without it, Glasgow would have become the Belfast of the ’70s.”
Maybe by suppressing the outlet other things shall develop in Scotland they wont stop it that for sure. The Police action, look’s very much like Political big money talking.
As for the bombs well what’s the difference between a baby being blown apart with a mechanical bomb or physically being blown apart with vaccines and drugs such as Thalidomide?
I totally agree with you Brian the bombs have to stop.
Sincerely
Sniffer
Those who wish may feed the troll now.
@Matt
I got better things to do than feed a troll (Besides Harold is more entertaining)