Poul Thorsen was a key person in setting up a CDC funded team to perform epidemiology in Denmark. He has recently been indicted for wire fraud. Below are some of the key parts of the indictment which I feel will be of interest to the discussion:
Count
Aarhus University and Odense University Hospital administered the CDC grant under the direction of a principal investigator, who was assigned scientific and administrative oversight.
Count Paragraph 6 starts with:
In 2002, after CDC awarded the grant, defendant THORSEN went to Denmark and became the principal investigator, responsible for administering the research money awarded by the CDC to Denmark.
So, at least according to the Grand Jury that indicted him, Poul Thorsen was the “principal investigator” and was assigned “scientific and administrative oversight”. I bring this up because the question posed by many is “how much was he able to influence the scientific results?”. I can’t find the comment right now, but I do recall one collaborator (I believe Madsen) stating that Mr. Thorsen did not have the ability to
From Count Paragraph 8 we get some details as to how the scheme was allegedly pulled off:
“The invoices falsely claimed that a CDC laboratory had performed work under the grant for which Aarhus University owed money.
I.e. he told his University in Denmark that the CDC was doing some of the work and that money had to be transferred back to pay for that. But, it appears that the money was transferred into personal accounts belonging to Mr. Thorsen.
Now, here’s the part that’s going to get a lot of speculation going.
On or about the dates set forth below in the Northern District of Georgia and elsewhere the defendant! POUL THORSEN aided and abetted by others known and unknown to the Grand Jury and for the purpose of executing the aforementioned scheme and artifice to defraud, transmitted and caused to be transmitted by means of wire communication in interstate and foreign commerce, writings, signs, signals, and sounds, that is, wire transfers ln the following amounts from accounts held by Aarhus University in Denmark to accounts held by defendant THORSEN at the CDC Federal Credit Union Atlanta, Georgia:
aided and abetted by others known and unknown to the Grand Jury
Many will ask “were members of his scientific team involved in the money transfers?” Some will just assert it as fact.
Note that the dates involved are from December 2006 to October 2008. This is long after the main autism/vaccine studies were performed. However, if true, these charges do show a man of low personal integrity. This will be used to question his work. However, the fact remains: his work has been replicated. Take the studies from his group out–discard them entirely–and the story remains the same: neither thimerosal nor the MMR vaccine caused an autism “epidemic”. The risk of autism is not higher for those who got vaccines with thimerosal or the MMR vaccine.
Left Brain Right Brain 
It is very interesting how a subject is raised here but then comments re that subject are labeled off topic. The word “indictment” is in the title of this blog. Count 14 is part of the indictment.
I admit I got mixed up which thread it is. But it still does not alter the fact that there is a difference between financial and scientific fraud, plus Thorsen’s involvement in both Danish studies was minor, plus there are several other studies that came to the same conclusion.
Since the list of papers agreeing with the Danish papers is long (and I posted it above), would you be so kind to list two papers that replicated Wakefield’s study that was written up in the now retracted Lancet paper? Please do not post any paper that had less than a dozen children, is not independent, fails to mention the MMR, gastrointestinal issues and autism. Also do not repeat arguments here. That is all, cite the two papers, nothing else.
Dr. Wakefield’s article was not a study.
It was a case series that included the interpretation stating that “We identified associated gastrointestinal disease and developmental regression in a group of previously normal children, which was generally associated in time with possible environmental triggers.”
So look at:
http://www.la-press.com/clinical-presentation-and-histologic-findings-at-ileocolonoscopy-in-ch-article-a1816
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/125/Supplement_1/S1
http://www.jabs.org.uk/pages/thrower.asp
These references link to reports that generally support the interpretation of that clinical case series report.
Best wishes to Prince William and Kate. Enjoy the pageantry and the moment.
re:
Sullivan
April 27th, 2011
18:50:49
and
replication of Thorsen et al
Replication of absence of evidence of harm is not evidence of safety.
It’s evidence, clear conclusive evidence, that neither MMR nor thimerosal caused an autism epidemic.
That is one level of demonstrating safety.
Mr. Thompson, the first link is from Dr. Krigsman. He worked with Wakefield at the Thoughtful House. The paper is from a non-peer reviewed vanity journal that has Wakefield as an editor. That is not independent.
The second link says nothing about the MMR. The third link is not a published paper.
I am sorry, sir, but only one is indexed at PubMed, and it is not a replication. What part of “Please do not post any paper that had less than a dozen children, is not independent, fails to mention the MMR, gastrointestinal issues and autism” did you not understand? Oops, sorry… I forgot the bit about having to be a published paper in a peer reviewed journal. But the “independence” criteria still exclude Dr. Krigsman. The third link is just a compilation of work, not one study.
Please try again. But just post the PubMed identification numbers. Make sure that they are not editorial comments, poster presentations or letters, but real independent replications of Wakefield using at least a dozen children and actually attempts to identify which MMR vaccine, along with including the gastrointestinal and autism bits. Independent means no one that has worked with Wakefield, that includes Krigsman, O’Leary and Lenny Gonzalez. Thank you.
Just be glad I am only asking for two papers and not the number of papers in this list.
@Chris: “it still does not alter the fact that there is a difference between financial and scientific fraud…”
To build on prior comments, I believe that scientific fraud is substantially independent of fiscal motives. On further reflection, I don’t think it would be a stretch to say that theft and scientific fraud seem to lend themselves to different personality types. The ideal thief is someone who is willing and able to avoid drawing attention. Research fraud, on the other hand, seems to be typically the pursuit of narcisists. (Wakefield strikes me as an archetypal example, notwithstanding his financial stakes in his “results”.) These types will be trying to make themselves as visible as possible, emphasizing their own importance and the implications of purported findings, which on the whole would seem to make them much easier to catch than a competent thief.
Dear Chris
Since the list of papers agreeing with the Danish papers is long (and you posted it above), would you be so kind to list two papers that disprove Wakefield’s study that was written up in the now retracted Lancet paper? Please do not post any paper that had less than a dozen children, is not independent of pharma funding is not associated to any goverment officials, fails to mention the MMR, gastrointestinal issues and autism. That is all, cite the two papers, nothing else?
Matter aside your own highest ranking personel below stating the obvious.
“the current President of Merck’s Vaccines Division, Julie Gerberding confirmed to CBS News when she was Director of the US Centres for Disease Control that: “So if a child was immunized, got a fever, had other complications from the vaccines. And if you’re predisposed with the mitochondrial disorder, it can certainly set off some damage. Some of the symptoms can be symptoms that have characteristics of autism.”
David Brown
I f we take your argument to its natural ending it would indeed seem likely that others within the CDC aided and abetted Dr. Poul Thorsen the Danish researcher held in highest esteem for having “debunked” the autism vaccine connection many years ago.
The out pourings of corrupted science case studies from the CDC paymaster generals are so intentionally conflating they are now meaningless intertwined with double standards and a thick dose of hypocarcy topped with crumbly lies.
For example here is Dr Max Wiznitser Pharma excellence Autism expert
http://www.mariettatimes.com/page/content.detail/id/534965/Autism-expert-at-MC.html?nav=5002
“If you can’t trust the integrity of the researcher, you can’t trust the research,” Dr. Max Wiznitzer told a standing- room only crowd in Marietta College’s McDonough Center auditorium Monday night….
An expert on autism spectrum disorder, Wiznitzer was a key witness against claims in a study led by Dr. Andrew Wakefield that trace amounts of mercury in the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine was linked to autism.
Who do you believe ?Is it any wonder people are now turning to You Tube for medical advice?
Yours Sincerely
Sniffer
Sniffer, please enroll in an adult basic English class at in your community. Then you might understand the answers you have been given multiple times.
“(and you posted it above), would you be so kind to list two papers that disprove Wakefield’s study that was written up in the now retracted Lancet paper?”
Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study (25 children with autism and GI disturbances and 13 children with GI disturbances alone (controls)) and Measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination and bowel problems or developmental regression in children with autism: population study (278 children with core autism and 195 with atypical autism).
Dr. Taylor’s study was done in the same hospital with the same funding as Wakefield’s Lancet paper.
Sullivan:
Actually, no scientific evidence exists that proves that MMR or thimerosal did not cause an autism epidemic. CDC, FDA, and the Pharma hired guns say they don’t know what caused it. If one does not know what the cause is then it is impossible to say what the cause is not. Vaccines and thimerosal on holiday in a Vegas Casino while this epidemic was created.
Sullivan:
If one does not what the cause is then it is impossible to know what the cause is not.
Also absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Chris:
The paper was a case series report with a hypothesis and an indication calling for scientific investigation.
Pharma does not seem to care though, possible because they have immunity from tort action.
“If one does not what the cause is then it is impossible to know what the cause is not.”
By this logic, the “refrigerator mother” hypothesis is still on the table. I am quite comfortable saying that Bruno Bettleheim was wrong, for example.
In case that wasn’t direct enough: your statement is clearly incorrect.
“Also absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”
There is more than ample evidence that thimerosal and MMR do not increase the risk of autism. The “epidemic” was not caused by MMR or thimerosal.
“The paper was a case series report with a hypothesis and an indication calling for scientific investigation.”
One–a case series is a type of study. Two–the Lancet paper was not a true case series. It is not a collection of data from a simple series of patients who were treated according to their needs. The patients were recruited and they were subjected to the exact same protocol, regardless of their clinical needs. This protocol was what Mr. Wakefield had created in for his program of research for the legal aid board. Three–Mr. Wakefield’s work does not begin and end with the Lancet paper. He made extraordinary claims in the press conference, for example. Those claims were not supported by any work be it in the Lancet or elsewhere.
The paper was a case series report with a hypothesis and an indication calling for scientific investigation.
Pharma does not seem to care though, possibly because they have immunity from tort action.
Which paper? One of the two Thorsen was partially involved in? Any of Wakefield’s? The two I just listed? Or one of the other ones on the link of studies I linnked to?
“…Wakefield’s Lancet paper.”
see comment above on April 29th, 2011 at
17:29:38
That is my comment, and you still are not making any sense. All papers have the “we want more money” statement that “a hypothesis and an indication calling for scientific investigation.” Plus Dr. Taylor provided that scientific investigation, as did Dr. Hornig. The hypothesis was proven to be false. Your point?
It can said that the hypothesis was not confirmed–but certainly it can not be said that it proven false. Looking and finding is replication in science. Looking and not finding is proof of nothing other than failure to replicate. Consider the funding source for these papers–CDC.
CDC funds programs that give children MMR and thimerosal preserved flu shots. CDC funds were alleged to have been used to by Dr. Thorsen to purchase a brand new Fat Boy Screaming Eagle Harley.
See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-GFqhCq2HA
Jim Thompson:
I’m sorry, there is one circumstance in which that cliche is false. That is, when a thorough effort has been made to look for the evidence and none is found, then absence of evidence can be viewed as evidence of absence. Given that multiple studies looking at the MMR-causes-Autism hypothesis turned up zero, zilch, nada, nothing, we can safely say that in this case that the absence of evidence IS actually evidence of absence.
Janice’s song is dripping with cynicism, thus another metaphor regarding the potential lack of ethics in the Danish research team fed by CDC through Dr. Thorsen’s hard work.
Julian Frost:
One can say that but it is not scientific proof.
Mr. Thompson, are you also confused by the difference between financial and scientific fraud?
I see the funding issue has a way to move goalposts. Still, where are the two papers that independently replicated Wakefield’s findings?
Sullivan and Chris,
Your both off topic.
Sincerely
Sniffer
Hi Brian
You put in a remark that sniffer went over the top with his idea of corporate killings and the CDC.
But they (CDC) withdrew thimerosal and then put it in vaccines for poor countries.
Recently in France over 95 per cent of the French adults REFUSED these thimerosal vaccines leaving a huge pile of undisposable vaccines in a secret warehouse. Not secret to the French Government obviously.
Thimerosal at ten times the concentration in vaccines has a lethal effect on people. It EXCEEDS the LD50 level.
The Verstraeten and CDC studies showed up to 200 fold effects from thimerosal vaccines.
Regulators have passed thimerosal vaccines as SAFE when they kill more than 1 in a 1 000 claiming SIDS deaths DONT COUNT as vaccine induced.
When a much safer form of vaccine was tested the deaths disappeared largely BUT no one thought OMG what about the 1 in 1 000 deaths we said were not thimerosal related 18 years before.
People are being selective with their findings or observations and this has caused deaths to possibly a million children to date.
Some vaccines work spectacularly well but you cant just murder children for the sake of herd immunity. these children were by logic mostly HEALTHY to stand up to a vaccine. For example a rubella vaccine destroys 20 per cent of platelets at the END of safety checks. To this day no further work has been done on this finding.
And as you well know 250 people each year in the UK are charged with SBS after vaccine harm in SECRET courts. See Times this month.
Meadow and his work is HISTORY but a new breed of vaccine experts protect government and regulators and industry.
And as you know if you get in their way you do get the police knocking on your door and / or banned from agitating in England. See Andrew Wakefield for one.
Dr Waney Squier is just one recent example turned in SECRETLY and MALICIOUSLY by her own colleagues on trumped up charges.
There is a Whitehall based group copying search and destroy tactics used in USA by Merck for one.
And then there is the revolving door. Gerberding CDC doing such a fine job permitting KILLER VACCINES as mentioned above she moves to the vaccine giants.
Moves like this are ILLEGAL in Europe.So the revolving door just goes on ILLEGALLY here. For example one lady moving from GMO regulation to GMO industry.
Sullivan:
Science does not allow one to say things like it is “proven” or “conclusive” that thimerosal does not cause autism. Not all evidence supports those terms. For instance see Verstraeten el al 2/29/2000. There is risk of autism from both thimerosal in vaccines and MMR. For instance see US Vaccine payouts to parents of vaccine damaged children.
And the underlying mechanism that causes autism is unknown. Consider gravity for instance. The effects are known. And the equations by Newton have been modified by Einstein. But yet today mankind has not proven the underlying mechanism of gravity. Einstein tried but failed.
But we do know that heavy metals result in brain injury. And we do know that a subset of all children is more susceptible to brain injury after their immune systems are over challenged.
So one must not overstate the current status of science, with regard to safety of vaccines, by improperly using terms such as “conclusive” and “proven.”
Jim Thompson
Not true. Science has proven that the earth goes around the sun. Conclusively.
Science has shown that the MMR vaccine is not responsible for the rise in autism prevalence. Science has shown the same for thimerosal.
+++++++
Sullivan:
re: Wakefield et al paper
The introduction is:
“We saw several children who, after a period of apparent normality, lost acquired skills, including communication. They all had gastrointestinal symptoms, including abdominal pain, diarrhoea, and bloating and, in some cases, food intolerance. We describe the clinical findings, and gastrointestinal features of these children.”
And so…compare all of the disagreements between scientists regarding this case series report—compare this to the outright theft of CDC’s of millions of dollars, as alleged by the US Justice Department regarding Danish researcher Dr. Thorsen.
Hi Jim
You have one failing – you suffer from Common Sense.
A lot of people here would take issue with you if you said you need 1000 centimes to make up 10 euros.
The work of Thorsen under investigation is his work on alcohol and autism. The inditement skates over the thimerosal work.
Mercury, like lead, like uranium, like plutonium are dangerous heavy metals if people are exposed. Plenty of scope for good epidemiologist to prove black is white.
I am working on the cost of Chernobyl for which the IAEA and WHO come up with figures like 2 dead at the plant and globally at least 28 killed.
Try comparing this with the demography of the Ukraine for the past 25 years and you may understand deals of the WHO with any other power group, you may understand how science can lose 10 million Ukrainians and think it was ONLY 28 etc etc. Epidemiology since Doll is a non science.
France was conned by the WHO and they were FORCED to buy useless vaccines filled up with mercury.
We know from an astute group of scientists that at ten times the concentration it exceeds the lethal dose (LD50).
Still waiting for anyone to explain how one day babies are safe from a thimerosal vaccine based on science, on common sense and knowledge we have known about for a thousand years. But people here are happy with that as they refuse to examine all the data.
Magos and Clarkson were world experts on mercury harm 40 years ago. Today like too many people the thought of big bucks for reversing their life work pays for bills that retirement from bad employers makes us slaves to money andnot masters of it.
Give me ten grand andI woulmd be more than tempted. Law tells us people have killed for less than a hundred euros. Lying cant come more expensive can it?
Mr. Thompson, the retracted Wakefield study was both a small case series that did not support his statements in the press conference, and it has since been shown to be scientifically fraudulent. Why do you keep clinging to it so tightly? Let it go, move on.
Mr. Fryer, everything you write will be considered pulled out of thin air unless you provide supporting evidence.
Hi Chris
Tell me what facts you wish to know about thimerosal et al?
If you look at that video reference it answers most of your knowledge that is missing.
You can take a horse to water ….
Ihave been studying health issues for 50 years.
It takes time to piece things together.
15 years ago like you I thought people who thought vaccines were harmful were mad.
Today I know madness is to put a neurotoxin in a vaccine when it is not needed and keep that information away from even most vaccine regulators.
Halsey for example was horrified and he got the one day vaccine with mercury going.
When you realise the deals going around it becomes easier to see the LIARS.
Ihave nothing to lose either way.
Geberding going from regulator to vaccine boss is IMMORAL for she may be considered getting the post for services rendered.
In Europe such goings on are technically ILLEGAL but they still do it.
Thorsen for example seems to have chosen Atlanta to live; WHY?
Mr. Fryer..
Citation Needed
Chris
Your off topic again.
Please keep on topic and quit the diversion from Thorsen.
Yours Sincerely
Sniffer
Nightstorm
Not sure which citation you are wanting?
Sniffer, if you’re going to remind people that they are off topic, at least have the decency to not be biased, and make sure you include all the people who are off topic, not just the ones you wish to score cheap points off of.
Kindly extend your remonstrations to Jim and John too, or withdraw from your concern trolling. You are no good at it, nor are you any good at the role you are falsely pretending to adopt.
In short, add to the discussion or shut up.
For everything you write, Mr. Fryer.
Hi Chris
To solve any health disaster people need first of all to be knowledgeable and to take note of observations. And ignore anecdote such as one doctor infamously writing that his son was turned into a green monster after a vaccine. In fact, truth is he, the father was turned into an idiot before his son received a vaccine, rather matching anecdotes of the other Paul..
There are people here who seem to think that autism is something to celebrate. It is simply a man made health disaster. A search of U tube will find some very moving scenes of those seriously with autism. Too many people affected slightly by the environment which includes over vaccination are brought into the spectrumtocover upthe real victims who cannot EVER lead normal lives.
If this is difficult (autism is a man made disaster) to believe, then we need to widen our horizons.
Fukushima is not the first or last nuclear man made catastrophe. After less than one month people have lost interest in this but the health impacts have not started and will unroll over a 25 year period in Japan mainly but also in the Northern World.
Focussing in on Thorsen, there has already been many efforts to reduce harm caused by his presence in the autism world.
A three year delay in finding him, although he was clearly in Atlanta and known to all interested parties.
His charge sheet does not properly cover any work on thimerosal. It focusses only on money related things. Autism was not part of his passion and for the authorities they too will ignore autism. For me, the prosecution is just another waste of several million dollars while autism children and families get bankrupted when they have proof of vaccine harm denied using work from Thorsen et al.
And to answer your question, one important source is the knowledge of Andrew Wakefield and my citation for one particular talk for which you are on record of refusing to listen to.
Hence the quote of taking the horse to water.
I can put citations, as this is laziness ( I plead guilty) on my part but as you admit you wont look at them it seems pointless. The knowledge base is so large I have to admit to missing important work at times myself.
My knowledge is widely understood by many people except some people here. I am no fountain of original work but I can interpret often what is skillfully hidden in papers like Thorsens of thimerosal harm for which they have the cheek to say they can find no evidence of harm. Note the wording. They NEVER say thimerosal KILLS, they never say thimerosal is a NEUROTOXIN, they never say it alters DNA in autism children making it UNLIKE the DNA of EITHER parent. They just look for information that tells them nothing. We can now with alleged evidence of FRAUD imagine correctly using the Wakefield analogies that Thorsen finding something may have just collected figures and dismissed the ones that did not fit the hypothesis he was paid to “discover”. Such discovery meaning more money flowing to the coffers.
Ruth Etzel put it simply in 1999.
Lets admit our harm for thimerosal
Lets explain why we were idiots
And lets get it out of vaccines now (in 1999)
What is the result today?
They put it in for poor children
They put it in for babies still in the womb
And as in every cock up situation
Little babies accidently get it when it is EXPRESSLY forbidden.
Add to this the work of Thorsen and others to cover up thimerosal harm and you get a picture of experts totally out of control.
Kreesten M. Madsen, Marlene B. Lauritsen, Carsten B. Pedersen, Poul Thorsen, Anne-Marie Plesner, Peter H. Andersen, and Preben B. Mortensen
Thimerosal and the Occurrence of Autism: Negative Ecological Evidence From Danish Population-Based Data
Pediatrics, Sep 2003; 112: 604 – 606.
This study was shredded even before we knew Thorsen was a millionaire on the back of research funding.
Do a check list for yourself of what Wakefield has done and what Thorsen has done and find which person has turned the clock back on finding the cause of autism.
Dear Dedj,
Forgive me for my sins also copying the web-mannerisms of Chris and others on here.
I must say you are very good at “concern trolling” and note the unbiased comments you always post.
In an attempt to put the topic back on track I continue as follows. If Thorsen makes it to court alive he will spill the beans on others involved probably such as Simpon and especially her boss Dr. Robert Chen investigated by DOJ for ignoring evidence that Thimerosal was unsafe.
Simpson, is still at the CDC and is now CDC Director for the country of Botswana.
Just look at how much of the e-mails are blanked out..FOI joke!!
http://www.putchildrenfirst.org/chapter4.html
Sincerely
Sniffer
Sullivan:
Copernicus, Galileo and others understood that the effect of gravity created a force that controlled our solar system. Newton understood the physics of the effect of gravity well enough to formulate an equation to describe that effect. And Einstein understood the physics of the effect of relativity well enough to modify the equation. But no one has yet been able to go beyond the effect of gravity and actually discover the underlying mechanism that causes this force.
And no less cosmic is the concept of injecting children and pregnant women with mercury that has a known effect of destroying brain cells. No valid scientist can claim that it is proven safe to inject thimerosal preserved vaccines into children and pregnant women. No valid scientist can claim that is proven that MMR is not a cause of autism in children.
Next look at how Thalidomide was removed from being used in pregnant women. It was animal studies on rabbits.
And look at studies on animals and MMR and thalidomide and brain injury. See Hewitson et al “Influence of pediatric vaccines on amygdala growth and opioid ligand binding in rhesus macaque infants: A pilot study,” at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20628439 .
I’ve discussed the Hewitson paper at length in this blog.
Here’s a question for you: what are the error bars on the measurements she made? She shows them as nice little dots, but clearly there is an uncertainty to the measurement.
It’s a leading question. The absolute short answer to the Hewitson paper is that she was discussing a lot of noise. She had very small statistics and was trying to measure very small volumes using a method that is not really capable of the precision required. It was a waste of laboratory animals.
Chris:
Yes, it was a small case series report. As far as studies, the vaccinated vs. unvaccinated studies remain to be done.
John:
Regarding common sense, look at the effect between Thalidomide and birth malformations as reported forty years ago. See Sjostrom and Nilsson Thalidomide and the Power of the Drug Companies (1971), Chapter 8, The Proof that Thalidomide Caused the Disaster, page 156.
One of the reasons offered for the denial of a Thimerosal-malformation effect was that:
“… (8) Mothers who claim to have taken Thalidomide during the critical phase, have given birth to absolutely normal children.”
Of course, as noted by Sjostrom and Nilsson, this was nonsense.
“Every biologist knows that within a group of living organisms there is always an individual variation in the sensitivity towards, for example, a poison or a drug. Because of natural biological variation some individuals are affected more than others and some are perhaps not affected at all. If about 0.5 milligrams of strychnine is given by intraperitoneal injection to a certain strain of rats, approximately 50 per cent of the animals will die. The fact that the other 50 per cent survive cannot, of course, be taken as evidence against a causal relation between the intake of strychnine and death in rats.”
So … with a Unites States CDC estimated average probability that a child will have ASD is p = 0.01 (one in one hundred); with the US government concessions in United States vaccine court that there is evidence of an effect of brain injury related to the intake of vaccines; and with animal studies showing brain injury from vaccines–forty years later Thorsen allegedly stole millions from the very CDC funding process that was used to help his colleagues offer a reason to deny an effect of thimerosal-preserved vaccines on children.
Finally, with all of this nonsense about the how it is conclusive and proven safe to inject a heavy metal into children and pregnant women, it is long past time to use common sense and take mercury, a known neurotoxin, out of all vaccines worldwide and recall all vaccines with Thimerosal.
Nice strawman. I’m not arguing that one can take a giant syringe of mercury and inject it into a pregnant woman or infant. Clearly. The argument is whether the amounts of mercury in vaccines increase the risk of autism. A variant of this question is whether the amount of mercury in vaccines in the 1990’s caused an “epidemic” of autism.
Can we answer these questions? Yes. It isn’t “nonsense”? It’s a statement based on multiple studies.
Also, you are making the very common mistake of interpretation of the CDC prevalence estimates. First, let’s say it again prevalence estimates. They have multiple studies showing that their estimates are likely underestimates. They are not an estimate of risk of autism. They are an estimate of how many autistics there are right now, in a given birth cohort.
One major problem with the CDC methodology is that they don’t screen all children. They work from existing records. Autistics without special notes in their school records or medical records will be missed.
As to your Newton/Gallileo/Copernicus analogy. It is quite a poor example. The existence of gravity has been known since early man. We all fall to the earth. The explanation has taken a long time. There is no evidence for the existence of thimerosal caused autism. You have poor theories in search of data. It’s been a long search, and I fear the search will be as long or longer than the search for the underling mechanism of gravity.
correction:
United States CDC
Mr. Fryer, we are assuming everything you write is pulled out of thin air. Especially for this statement: “his study was shredded even before we knew Thorsen was a millionaire on the back of research funding.”
Where is the critique of that study by a qualified reviewer? Please provide the journal, date, title and author of it so I can find it in PubMed and get a copy at my local medical school library. You too seem to be confusing the difference between financial and scientific fraud.
Mr. Thompson: “Yes, it was a small case series report. As far as studies, the vaccinated vs. unvaccinated studies remain to be done.”
Please provide a viable study design that would make sure that no harm from a vaccine preventable disease to the placebo arm, and complies to the rules of the Nuremberg Code, the Declaration of Helsinki and the Belmont Report. But on your own blog, since that is straying far off topic.
Now both of you, please go look up the difference between financial and legal fraud.
Mr. Thompson: “Next look at how Thalidomide was removed from being used in pregnant women. It was animal studies on rabbits.”
It was not approved for use in the USA until 1998, and then only for limited uses and not for pregnant women. It was because someone noticed the effect of quinine on pregnant rabbits.
Hi Chris
You seem not to know that the criticisms were long and vitriolic but have not been published in peer reviewed journals as those that have questions on vaccines have difficulty in getting them published.
You are aware of all the counter arguments by people sytematically taken down. Wakefield for example hounded out of the profession for the Royal Free not admitting that the research paper did not have any funding except hospital funds or that or that although ethical approvazl was given it is a basis to crucify a person and not others in some random fashion. In that video you refuse to look at the approval form allowing the research can be seen and read. Normally if fault is proven all involved shoulmd be guilty. In some bizarre way only the guilty were let off.
But look at the thorsen et al paper in question for a moment which is in your accepted spectrum of acceptable science.
The first 32 people found to be autistic after MMR vaccines was actually 20 more than found for the unvaccinated group after adjusting for the fewer unvaccinated people.
How does an over representation of autism cases in the vaccinated group support a condemnation of the hypothesis that vaccines cause autism?
The figures are just data mining and take no account of whether those unvaccinated had issues with earlier vaccines or vice versa.
This is typical of nearly all studies that support vaccines in that the data does not support the conclusions. Again and again the data is clear but is not the conclusions noted. One person actually re did the maths of one such aberrant work and showed the opposite conclusion.
Can you explain why extra autism in the MMR group or less autism in the unvaccinated group means MMR does not cause autism.
It leaves the question very much open.
Ref is 2002 Nov 7 NEJM with Poul Thorsen as one of eight authors.
I wrote to this group many years ago to query a few things and they refused to answer them or more exactly just stopped responding.
Questions like the one above for example.
To find an over representation of autism in a vaccinated group compared to the unvaccinated group and not even explain this finding and come up with MMR does not cause autism is scientific fraud unless there is a proper explanation.
The usual get out is we found this and the significance is not clear.
This study provides strong evidence against the hypothesis that MMR vaccination causes autism.
As a simple chemist and not a vaccine expert perhaps someone can explain how an over representation of autism in the vaccinated group supports this conclusion without being scientific fraud?
Even point out the flaw in my thinking as perhaps an over representation of autism after vaccines is in some Alice in Wonderland World proof that there are no side effects from a vaccine of which we know one component can cause autism (rubella is a strong autism generator) and also the same component in vaccine trials destroyed platelets after 45 days of tests on adults when safety was considered fine as no one in this time turned into green monsters or anything else that worried the vaccine company that did the safety tests on their new product.
With interpretations like this you can prove 2 plus 2 does not equal 4 very convincingly or realistically that destroying platelets is a desirable side effect of a vaccine?.
This is just one of many problems in the paper and with the vaccine in general where the conclusions are contrary to the data.
The fact that so many get the vaccine, get protected and come to no harm is incredible but TRUE.
But do we have to say UP YOURS to the 330 000 and rising on the VAERS data bank for one country for one tenth of vaccine history?
Or do we do what in England WE USED TO DO and SUPPORT THEM.
Why dont we support them now? There are 4X too many to pay for today.
Chris:
Agreed. It was never approved in the US–because of Dr. Kelsey starting around 1960. Dr. Kelsey coauthored an article in 1945, “Studies on Antimalarial Drugs-the Distributio of Atabrine in the Tissues of the Fowl and the Rabbit,” which provided data showing drugs crossing the placental barrier in rabbits.
See http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/83/4/288.abstract?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=20&RESULTFORMAT=1&author1=frances+oldham&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=match&fdate=1/1/1940&tdate=5/31/1950&resourcetype=HWCIT
Sullivan:
Yes, the small sample increases the confidence interval in tables 2IIa and b. However, the study gives a strong inference that the change in the mean amygdala size as a function of time change (between 4 months old and 6 months old) is significantly larger for the exposed monkeys.
Thus the conclusion states “the results of this pilot study warrant additional research into the potential impact of an interaction between the MMR and thimerosal-containing vaccines on brain structure and function.”
Nice point Jim that`s very clear.
Sullivan:
The existence of gravity — yes, but the underlying cause — no.
CDC prevalence estimates infer a probability estimate and are adjusted periodically.
And no agency has established a safe mercury level, i.e. ppb or ppt in the brain, that does not cause brain injury.
For this discussion, the question of whether a safety level has been set is irrelevant. We have ample data showing that the level of exposures from vaccines doesn’t cause autism.
Or Boyd on
Mercury Poisoning: Sources, Doses, and Effects [Boyd Haley]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW3zrA1VuBA
Mr. Fryer:
I don’t know because you don’t support your statements with any evidence. As far as we know these criticisms are figments of your imagination.
Hi Chris
On virtually the day of the Thorsen et al article 2002 Nov 7th the BBC announced the news to the British public that the MMR was SAFE. This once indepenent broadcasting group has a long history of telling the truth as opposed to propaganda and this effectively was another nail in the many placed metaphorically in the unsaintly Andrew with his blasphemy.
The BBC headline:
MMR DOES NOT CAUSE AUTISM
With more support from the:
UK Public Health Department.
and the:
UK Department of Health.
But even with the NEJM nailing its flag (Editor Campions following aritcle – the game is up on SIDS, autism, MS etc etc we dont have a clue what causes all these illnesses but we know neurotoxins and autism generators in VACCINES are completely INNOCENT) to that of Thorsen et al they all ignored many disturbing features such as that of over representation of autism in those with MMR vaccines. (Dont let facts get in the way of PROPAGANDA)
32 cases of autism in the MMR group and 3 in the unvaccinated group. This finding not discussed by Thorsen and maybe not even spotted by a world that relies on ABSTRACTS.
I have no particular view on the MMR debate and am like others concerned at the thimerosal issue where infants are now targetted in 2011 before they even draw breath. The level just ten times lower than a known lethal concentration for them. How any person not defending the bankrupting of their country can countenance such an ongoing practice is only explainable when 300 000 tons of a plutonium mix contaminating atmosphere is compared to that of less than 0.01 tons and the 60 year study of health degradation in the same country, as being of no risk and we can take these catstrophes every day until the end of man from his own folly arrives.
You claim: I dont support with evidence but I await the evidence given in the very paper you quote here:
That of Thorsen 2002 NEJM and how an increase in autism after MMR proves the unsaintly Andrew mistaken.
Its only one citation and when tackled I can feed you more to consider.
But as tit bit take this destruction of a one year old life by MODERN TECHNOLOGY so far unknown to INTELLIGENT MAN. Almost certainly not the MMR vaccine you can hear more distinctly than the loss of interest, eye contact and short term hope for this child. And of course they may well be right. We have already a documented 1997 case of NO IMMEDIATE HARM after organomercury poisoning by a substance with similar properties to thimerosal (a neurotoxin) also thought not too harmful if used carefully. I may have used the stuff myself as it still is standard kit in the chemists laboratory.
Check out:
Where a 13th child (still unlucky) is well after first year vaccines but either because of them (known delayed action of toxicity) or precipitated by second year vaccines (notably MMR) descends to a hell of degraded health until “recovered”. Recoveries now are at a level of up to 20 per cent,though this recovery cannot be described as better than the health before degradation. But recovery is now running at at least twice that of before so amongst the gloom and doom and bitter rivalary some children are getting some sort of life back.
And as the Danish study shows but was not reported on, it is true that most autism people have had some vaccines. But with many many cuases this is not 100 per cent necessary.
I am not sure what kind of genetics involves such a scenario (born healthy, then ill, then recovered) but undoubtably it will be a NOVEL genetic illness UNKNOWN to humans before. To my knowledge I know of no cure for any genetic illness and only that of countering what is in the genes by medication. Recovery implies cure and genetic cures are unknown to me but I stand to be corrected? It is outside by sphere of knowledge. I suffer from at least one genetic illness and there is no cure in this life.
Thorsen et al describing a false conclusion taken up with fervour in one country is FRAUD and is SCIENTIFIC FRAUD and its effects if proven will have resulted in the increase of autism post this study that may have been reversed with more appropriate caution and heed of unsaintly persons who also tried to get their NOVEL finding explored. I do know that I am not the only person who believes Thorsen is a committer of FRAUD and am most unhappy that the handful of FRAUD charges do not mention this paper and its HEALTH or ADVERSE HEALTH impact on our children.
I fail to see how a case study of 12 known and checkable people compares to that of data mining where the identities and link of the autism persons and bowel problems are not correlated to the same or different people.
Both suffer from publishing precipitously when the full diagnoses may not have come through which may even help this study. A recovered person being fruadulently taken as a success.
No chance of vaccine preventable illness
And no current autism diagnosis.
Perversity in FRAUD has no bottom.