Yesterday, my fellow countryman Mike Stanton left the following comment in response to a previous commenter about his belief regarding how his child had become autistic:
There may not be a single answer. But that does not mean we can pick any answer we like. There has to be some scientific validity to any hypothesis.
This is such a good comment. It reflects something I’ve felt increasingly over the last year or so – the increase in pseudo-scientific theories posed as a ‘menu’ for parents to choose from. It reminds me of sauntering up to the counter at McDonalds and saying – “I’ll have one of those, one of those and one of those.”
I recently came across a post made on the Onibasu list which illustrates my point. This is the signature of the poster in question. Its a list of treatments she’s trying on her child:
My son is using M-B12 (Hopewell) since Dec 2003, Wellness Essential GSH (had been using TD-Glut but levels were always low), TD-DMSA (3 on and 4 off – 8 hr schedule) (Lee Silsby) since Oct 2005, (Used TD-DMPS Jan 2005 ?Oct 2005) TD-ALA (Lee Silsby) since Oct 2005, TD-LDN (Wellness) Since Oct 2005, (High Tech Health) FIR sauna, Magnetico bed, High Tech Health’s water machine, and a lot of supplements.) GFGFSF diet.
The post in question is also asking about Lupron. Thats a total of 12 separate treatments, ‘a lot of’ supplements and she probably is in the process of adding Lupron to that list as we speak.
And can you Supersize me please?
What worries me is even a bog-standard bottle of Asprin has a warning on it about responsible use. Is it really sensible to risk giving one’s child such a massive cocktail of drugs on the word of someone who quite obviously is more interested in money than science?
Medicine shouldn’t be such a pick and mix affair. Its quite worrying about what this reveals about how the West’s perception of doctors has changed. Doctors who have undergone 7 years plus of training are viewed with suspicion and sued at the drop of an opinion whilst ‘doctors’ who have shops rather than practices are lauded as heroes.
How did it come to this? When did McScience start to replace science? How did it come to pass that the process of peer review (designed to give a good _starting point_ to a paper) meant nothing and the process of buying an entry in a pseudoscience rag or buying a misleading advertmeant everything?
I’m nobodies scientist. It takes me longer to understand the science because I need to go through it time after time so I understand all the words and understand the implications. I ask questions of actual scientists and get them to translate for me so it stands to reason to me that for an article to be peer reviewed in a decent journal assures that the standard of science in that article will be fairly high. It might not make the paper _right_ , but at least we can be sure its been thought through properly.
Surely that needs to be the absolute baseline of quality we should come to expect for papers that discuss such important questions. Otherwise we really do end up at the counter of McScience – like kids in a sweet shop, taking what we think we’ll like rather than what we need.
Left Brain Right Brain 
Sue M wrote:
“Wow, you have it wrong here (again) but you know that. My kids are awesome and perfect (of course). They’re off at the playground right now… running around as happy as can be. Their brains are very happy that they will never again see another thimerosal containing vaccination. I try to alert everyone to this tragedy. That’s all.” Well if their brains are happy in your opinion they aren’t autistic. Que pena
PS Would you mind not calling Nana a dope? She’s an old friend of mine (apologies Nana if you’re the wrong Nana, but you could also become a friend of mine).
There are dopes and then there are dopes. Why don’t you have a look at the WHO website, particularly their vaccination program. These folks are flat out getting single use syringes – forget about single dose vaccines. What was that about risk vs benefits Sue?
Clone wrote:
“Not for your children, apparently, so where is the tragedy and how were you appointed to alert everyone”?
– I’ll let you try to figure out the tragedy for yourself, Clone. As for who appointed me to alert everyone? No one did. Who appointed Kev to blog about this stuff? Who appointed Kathleen Seidel to send letters to the editors? It’s just something that we do because we believe in it…
Clone wrote:
“btw, your needle is stuck again. A good smack will help with that”.
– Pretty ironic considering what I just pointed out about you above. Did you forget that already? Omega 3’s….
– Sue M.
Alyric wrote:
“Would you mind not calling Nana a dope”?
– No, I don’t mind. Sorry, Nana.
Alyric wrote:
“There are dopes and then there are dopes. Why don’t you have a look at the WHO website, particularly their vaccination program. These folks are flat out getting single use syringes – forget about single dose vaccines. What was that about risk vs benefits Sue”?
– I have no idea what you are talking about. Go ahead and post a link if you want. You don’t really have to, though, I agree with you that the WHO is made up of a bunch of dopes. Take a look at this:
http://www.achamp.org/
Here’s the dopey WHO in action as quoted from above article:
“There was also concern,” says the federal official, “that an immediate withdrawal might discredit the international vaccine programs for which CDC is an important partner.” The World Health Organization has urged CDC against the banning of Thimerosal in U.S. vaccines since that prohibition might discredit WHO’s third world inoculation programs. WHO, with U.S. funding, is now injecting children in developing countries with the same amounts of Thimerosal we were giving American kids at their highest exposures, but in a shorter time period. In May 2001, WHO committed to “develop a strong advocacy campaign to support the ongoing use of Thimerosal”.
– Dopey, Dopey, Dopey…
– Sue M.
I watched the whole Geier thing on the vaccine database.
If what they said were true it would be shocking. The thing is that they are proven liars and fools, so why would anyone believe them?
They give the impression that they sat down and figured out the details of their story,
“Dad, you say, ‘blah, blah, blah’ and I’ll say, ‘narf, narf, narf’.” Then I’ll say, “I almost punched the guy!”
They honestly think we are going to believe that the woman hired to watchdog them has “an affected child”? That she risked her job to help them? Surely she was fired? What’s her name? She must have been fired. The outfit she worked for is 100% corrupt, why would they keep her around? Why didn’t someone buy her a ticket to the conference and interview her? She’s a hero.
They referred to a dad who had all this computer expertise. He was supposedly there at that conference. Why wasn’t he interviewed at the same time as the pappa doc and baby BA?
Why haven’t the congressmen involved just blown this wide open? I think because it never happened the way the Geiers say it did. Notice how they are staking out the territory for future quack therapy? They’ll be after asthma and obesity after they’ve left a few dead and maimed autistic children in their wake. Another clue to the fact that they are liars is that they claim to have all these “peer reviewed” papers. Stuff published in JAAPS is not peer reviewed in the sense of real scientists looking critically at their work. If you want to count other tweedle-heads as their peers, then I suppose that JAAPS is peer reviewed. Remember? JAAPS says HIV doesn’t cause AIDS. It’s goal is to ruin the reputation of the vaccine program, why? I have no idea but it’s a major antivax publication. No wonder they love the Geiers.
No wonder the mercury moms and dads love the Geiers they are all pure antivax.
I for one hope that someone credible who doesn’t have a lousy slimey, disrespect for life, antivax agenda can use the data gathered by the HMO’s and the feds to show what diseases, if any, are correlated to vaccine use.
I think that the Geiers are liars and they are so used to lying that they do it without thinking much about consequences, hence the testosterone and mercury whole cloth lie. They don’t care if children are seriously harmed by Lupron, they have to make the payments on the mansion. Where are the Geier women? Doesn’t sonny have a wife by now? Does he live with daddy in the mansion? Where’s mommy Geier?
Isn’t junior a bit old to have just graduated with a bachelor of arts in a science? and a minor in history! Ooh, a minor in history!! The fact that the minor gets mentioned on the FAIR site says alot about how smart these people are.
oops, you may need to click around a bit to get to the Kennedy article from my above link…
– Sue M.
Think Geiers are liars wrote:
“If what they said were true it would be shocking”.
– I actually find your feedback about the interview to be extremely good news for “our side” (I hate that term). The Geiers have gone on record with their side of the story. In order for you to be “right” (that they are lying) means that they have completely made up a story and are in effect criminals themselves (in my opinion). If NONE of what they say really happened, they should be criminally charged in this matter. If what they say is true… then quite frankly the people involved from the CDC shoud be held criminally responsible and the sh*t should hit the fan… Again, I find your opinion to be good news… Now, why are you so afraid to tell us who you are. Clearly, you visit this blog often, your not a newbie, so what’s up with the “anonymous” entry?
Think Geier’s are liars wrote:
“Why haven’t the congressmen involved just blown this wide open”?
– Earth to you… they’ve been trying to… it’s a mess!
– Sue M.
“If NONE of what they say really happened, they should be criminally charged in this matter.”
How much is enough to convict them? How much is enough for the average autism-mercury theory supporter to denounce them? It seems that it takes a death of a child for anyone to jump on a DAN! or DAN!-type doctor. And honestly, at that point, I call it CYA.
“… they’ve been trying to… it’s a mess!”
I think that’s a universal sentiment.
Sue. no slaps on the back yet, I’ll live.
And the 2 Geier vids I watched were the original two. That’s why I asked for a teaser before I subjected myself to another round. Between you and Think Geier the teaser was provided and the video seems to be a good healthy case of sensational inductive leapism. But I will watch them, despite having the awful feeling that Think Geier was trying to save me some agony.
“be assured that “here†is not the real world. So, certainly you can ignore the Geier’s but let’s be honest no matter what you think of the Geier’s or the rest of “usâ€, we’re not going away.”
That’s insightful so let’s put some numbers to it. Only a tiny fraction of the people who don’t believe the autism-mercury theory will ever read or hear what I have to say. In order to bump that up to (100% minus % of theory believers) then about 99.9999% of the world the world would have to be reading my stuff, watching my vids and nodding along.
Billions Served
My oldest son is not autistic, but he does have some severe speech and language issues, which may or may not be associated with his history of seizures. I think a while ago someone (who I think was Sue ‘eM”) asked why I was even posting on this blog. The reason was that I was pushed off of the listserv for his specific disability by the anti-vax folks and those who opposed my opinion that chelation was a “Bad Idea”.
My son’s last seizure was a Grand Mal that occured because he was dehydrated while suffering a nasty gastrointestinal disease. This may or may not have been prevented by the newly approved rotavirus vaccine. Personally, I would take the relative little risk of that vaccine, than the trip to Children’s Hospital Emergency Department by ambulance… and the lingering thought that the last severe seizure was the reason he needed over 10 years of speech therapy, and is still severely learning disabled.
Especially, since the “science” that is being touted is as bad as the Geiers! I posted this more recently on this blog, and I’m going to post it again… the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons is more political than scientific, ad definitely pure loony toons!
Here it is… by the way, click around the archive in question, it is an interesting study in what fads in quackery ahve come and gone:
Okay, about that “journal†and its group. One of it members, Jane Orient (was an “Executive Director†… http://www.aapsonline.org/testimony/admlaw.htm ) participated in the Healthfraud listserv for a while.
I spent a few minutes digging up some of her posts and responses to her in its archives:
Threads she participated in (click on the threads to read them) :
http://www.ssr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?1:aas:40162:200011#b (the healthfraud listserv archives are not user friendly)
A notice of her suspension: http://www.ssr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?1:mss:34574:199910:ifogflmmbfgahjoippbp
And finally a notice of “Jane Orient and her Antivaccination Gangâ€, actually an announcement that AAPS is online:
http://www.ssr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?1:mss:40151:200011:golhmnjdkcfgaokokcfm …
This is the entire thread:
http://www.ssr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?1:sss:40151:200011:golhmnjdkcfgaokokcfm#b (she does respond, saying she is being “gaggedâ€).
Jonathan: “I just commited the fallacy of begging the question…”
Yes, but at least you can identify it and admit it…. unlike SueM…
😉
The big point, Sue, is that the Geiers have lied about sheets of testosterone and mercury. Mark Geier is part of the team of experts who will testify in the Autism Omnibus hearing. One of the big pharmaceuticals that is named in the lawsuit so I hear, is Abbott. Abbott is part of the company that makes Lupron. The Geiers are promoting Lupron. The Geiers are putting kids in danger with Lupron. The Geiers appear to be overcharging for the Lupron.
The Geiers just wrote a paper that is really stupid. This is just one of several really stupid papers they have published that are slanted to support the SAFE MINDS agenda and published in a really quack journal. Feel free to defend the latest one. I dare you.
They have no credibility left. So why should anyone take their word that all that went on with the vaccine database? It’s kind of a ‘boys who cry “wolf”‘ thing. It doesn’t help any that they present as a couple of weirdos.
They made a point that if data was destroyed for no good reason that the people who destroyed it should be charged with a crime. That seems reasonable. I just don’t think it happened. The Geiers are known liars. That’s the problem.
Well, if all you’ve got is that you think the Geier’s are lying… Prove it 🙂
– Sue M.
The Geiers are not epidemiologists or statisticians. These are the same clowns who (according to Kirby’s book) admittedly didn’t even know SAS.
If you don’t believe that the Geiers were worthy enough for the job, take it up with Congress who assigned them to go look into the VSD data. Then, go watch the videos (clearly you didn’t) and prove to me that they lied.
– Sue M.
Dear Sue:
I admire your willingness to repeatedly hit your head against the wall with this group.
In all the time that I have observed Kevin’s Blog, I have neither seen either side give any material ground to the other. Why persist?
The Geiers are to this blog as Wakefield was to the IOM: they offer up evidence and information that is extremely damning. When presented with it, as the walls of denial start to fall down, the only available response is an Ad Hominem attack, facts be damned.
The construct that Kevin and others are living under that autism is a state of being, something we are born with, is a coping mechanism and a form of denial. Many of the people you argue with are mentally ill themselves and unable to see themsleves clearly. Others, like Kevin, have adpated to this position in order to survive. I understand, whta’s been done to our children is very, very hard to internalize.
The walls are closing in around this group and the others who believe that vaccines and autism are unrelated. Each new truth, likely to show themselves over the next few months, is likely to be more damning than the last.
If this were just a group of adult, high-functioning autistics, I really wouldn’t care. But, it includes people like Kevin, who could be spending their time helping save their children from the metabolic trainwreck going on inside their bodies that we are ever more clearly starting to understand.
Instead, Kevin may spend more time blogging than any other person on the planet. That time could be spent treating your daughter or for God’s sake spending time with her. Instead, it’s on this blog with a bunch of self-admitted mentally ill adults, in a group massage of denial support.
My heart bleeds for the children whose parents are too blind to see.
JB Handley
Welcome back JB – as lucid as ever I see :o)
_”The Geiers are to this blog as Wakefield was to the IOM: they offer up evidence and information that is extremely damning. When presented with it, as the walls of denial start to fall down, the only available response is an Ad Hominem attack, facts be damned.”_
What evidence would that be JB? What facts would those be?
_”The walls are closing in around this group and the others who believe that vaccines and autism are unrelated. Each new truth, likely to show themselves over the next few months, is likely to be more damning than the last.”_
What? _Another_ ‘next few months’??? How many ‘next few months’ does the world have to wait until one of your pet quacks comes clean.
_”But, it includes people like Kevin, who could be spending their time helping save their children from the metabolic trainwreck going on inside their bodies that we are ever more clearly starting to understand.”_
When you say ‘ever more clearly starting to understand’ JB, which studies are you referring to? The quacky ones not in any decent science journal? Or the ones authored by people who asked to have their names and papers taken off your adverts? :o)
_”Instead, Kevin may spend more time blogging than any other person on the planet. That time could be spent treating your daughter or for God’s sake spending time with her.”_
Wow, didn’t realise you were psychic as well JB :o)
I realise my blogging about the sort of assholery you promote gets right on your nerves JB but I’m sure your balls are big enough to deal with it.
_”Instead, it’s on this blog with a bunch of self-admitted mentally ill adults, in a group massage of denial support.”_
LOL! You have an excellent turn of phrase JB. Almost as good as your fellow bigot John Best Jr. Can I suggest just a little more crazy? You’re not _quite_ up to scratch.
Sue,
The claims of the Geiers are nothing new. They’ve concoted a fanciful conspiracy tale in which the government, HMO’s, and drug companies are working together to not only poison children by the truckloads but sully their personal reputations as well. Of course one can’t disprove everything that the Geiers say, because much of it is unable to be disproved – just as you can’t disprove the fact little green martians are controlling the earth.
I’m not saying the Geiers are wrong. Their hypothesis about mercury and autism may very well be correct. They just haven’t provided any credible evidence to that point.
JB Handler said: “But, it includes people like Kevin, who could be spending their time helping save their children from the metabolic trainwreck going on inside their bodies that we are ever more clearly starting to understand.â€
Gosh, that sounds scary. Can you tell us more about this “metabolic trainwreck” and how it can only be explained by mercury poisoning?
Mr. Handley wrote:
You wrote “The Geiers are to this blog as Wakefield was to the IOM: they offer up evidence and information that is extremely damning. When presented with it, as the walls of denial start to fall down, the only available response is an Ad Hominem attack, facts be damned.”
Mr. Handley, since we are talking about facts and the Geiers’ research, will you answer a few questions about their latest?
1. The time trend regression they used seems to have a rather arbitrary point of supposed decrease in Jan 2003. Why that point as opposed to Mr. Kirby’s 2005?
2. How did the Geiers control for random and systematic errors (they didn’t talk about this in their article) for the CDDS and VAERS databases?
3. Why didn’t the Geiers attempt to explain the spikes since Jan 2003 that were well outside the range of their 95% confidence interval; there was a very notable one in July 2003?
4. July 2003 was also the start of a more restrictive criteria within the CDDS. Is this a confound and if so, should the Geiers have noted it?
5. The CDDS also say that one cannot call the change between quarters new intakes. They also say that no one should use their data for correlational, incidence, or prevalence calculation as their database wasn’t designed to be reliable for that. What are the ethics of ignoring this in your opinion?
6. The Geiers state that the IDEA data shows a drop in 2004-2005, in the rate of increase for the 3-5 age group. That is not entirely true. What does this indicate?
Thank you for your time sir.
Kevin:
As usual, you are not above the name calling. Your childishness is one of the parts of your personality that explains your unwillingness to face your daughter’s illness head-on, in my never humble opinion.
“It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.” –G.K. Chesterton
Kevin, you went wrong when you shut off the truth about what happened to your daughter, and started hanging out with people who they themselves will tell you have been diagnosed with a mental illness.
John Best Jr. is making you guys look like a bunch of idiots, and that clearly bothers you.
Also, I admire your willingness to sidestep the statements of your country’s own Peter Fletcher, once again relying on Ad Hominem attacks or claiming he hadn’t shown you enough evidence. This is laughable!! A man in his position and it doesn’t even pique your curiosity that he may know something you, a blogging legend in your own mind, do not? Denial is a powerful thing, as this entire blog is living proof. Someday, the text here will be in the archive of “Denial to avoid Human Suffering.”
What happened to your daughter after DPT is a tragedy. But, the far greater tragedy is that she could be getting way, way better if you would allow yourself to see. How all of you can sit back and watch the growing number of stories of fully recovered children is nothing but a testimony to the power of denial.
May God grant you the power to see before it is too late for your kids.
JB Handley
JB
Sue M wrote:
Here’s the dopey WHO in action as quoted from above article:
“There was also concern,†says the federal official, “that an immediate withdrawal might discredit the international vaccine programs for which CDC is an important partner.†The World Health Organization has urged CDC against the banning of Thimerosal in U.S. vaccines since that prohibition might discredit WHO’s third world inoculation programs. WHO, with U.S. funding, is now injecting children in developing countries with the same amounts of Thimerosal we were giving American kids at their highest exposures, but in a shorter time period. In May 2001, WHO committed to “develop a strong advocacy campaign to support the ongoing use of Thimerosalâ€.
But Sue, the dopes in question here aren’t WHO dopes. From the piece that you quote, it appears that they are A Champ dopes, since this is their little speech. Actually ‘dopes’ is far too kind a word for anybody willing to compromise a third world vaccination program for what – to make a point? profit? You support these people, right?
_”As usual, you are not above the name calling.”_
What names did I call you JB? I apologise if I bruised your tender sensibilities.
_”Your childishness is one of the parts of your personality that explains your unwillingness to face your daughter’s illness head-on, in my never humble opinion.”_
_”Tell me JB, who was it who referred to me and others as ‘a wanker’ and ‘trailor dwelling coo-coos’.? It was you wasn’t it? Not above a bit of childish name calling yourself are you?
My daughters only illness is her Asthma by the way. But thanks for the genuine and heart rending concern.
_”Kevin, you went wrong when you shut off the truth about what happened to your daughter, and started hanging out with people who they themselves will tell you have been diagnosed with a mental illness.”_
Well, thats your opinion. You’re welcome to it. However, I’d suggest _you_ went wrong when you started relying on mumbo-jumbo and pushing chelation on people as a de facto cure then back tracking and claiming you’ve _always_ promoted ABA, B-12 injections and ll the rest of that stuff.
_”John Best Jr. is making you guys look like a bunch of idiots, and that clearly bothers you.”_
LOL….now I _know_ you’ve lost it. Are you seriously under the impression that John, a confessed homophobe, racist, hitter of his own child – and who hasn’t even had his own child tested for any kind of metal poisoning – is capable of making _anyone_ look foolish – aside from the Generation Rescue heirarchy of course :o)
But thanks for the admission of support for those positions John adopts :o)
_”Also, I admire your willingness to sidestep the statements of your country’s own Peter Fletcher, once again relying on Ad Hominem attacks or claiming he hadn’t shown you enough evidence.”_
JB – go away and learn what Ad Hominem means matey. Your continued misuse of it is making you look stupider and stupider. A feat even I felt impossible :o)
I’ve not attacked his character or person at all. I’m also not claiming he hasn’t shown enough evidence. I’m saying in the articles he’s quoted in he hasn’t shown _any_ evidence. Feel free to show me where he has though and I’ll happily admit my error.
_”This is laughable!! A man in his position and it doesn’t even pique your curiosity that he may know something you, a blogging legend in your own mind, do not?”_
The only person who’s used the phrase ‘blogging legend’ is you JB – thanks very much for the thought :o)
And it _definitely_ piqued my curiosity which is why I blogged it. What it failed to do however, was offer any answers. Or further the debate, or add anything to it at all.
_”What happened to your daughter after DPT is a tragedy. But, the far greater tragedy is that she could be getting way, way better if you would allow yourself to see.”_
She’s absolutely fine thanks JB. We went for a long walk today into my local town and back and had a good chat on the way – in her own way of course – I managed to squeeze this in between my exhausting blogging schedule :o)
_”How all of you can sit back and watch the growing number of stories of fully recovered children is nothing but a testimony to the power of denial.”_
Which stories would these be JB? Which science paper are they documented in?
_”May God grant you the power to see before it is too late for your kids.”_
When did you become such a drama queen?
And why did you sidestep the questions I asked you? You said I was ignoring ‘evidence’ and ‘facts’ the geiers had presented – what are they?
How many more ‘next few months’ will we all have to wait for you to buy your next erroneous advert? Or vanity published science article?
Come on JB – even an intellectual lightweight such as yourself should be able to back up these claims. As it is, debating you is like shooting really really large, slow moving fish in a really really small barrel with a Howitzer.
Bortholomew:
You guys are such unbelievably pathetic whiners, and you appear to be the king whiner.
When you can’t stand the things I am saying, you try your best to tangentially attack me.
The success of Generation Rescue bothers the hell out of you, because we directly threaten your neatly crafted wall of denial.
So, in your infiinite wisdom, you try the “smear by association” strategy. Your skills would be better used in a hotly-contested PTA election.
Batholomew, you have no idea what behavior, words, ideas or people I support beyond whatever I have written, and thanks for trying to be a sleazebag, histionic, rumor-mongerer. Your “aghast behavior” reminds me of the #1 histrionic, Miss Seidel.
You are one of the reaosn why this whole group makes me so sick. In the time Generation Rescue has been up, we’ve helped thousands of chidlren receive treatment. We’re received dozens of confirmations of children who began treatemnt after our publicity campaigns and have now lost their autism label. And yet, there you sit, just hoping or waiting to attack me by association as a way to make yourself feel better for your denial and ignorance.
To you, Bartholomew, please fuck yourself.
Very best,
JB Handley
_”You guys are such unbelievably pathetic whiners, and you appear to be the king whiner.”_
Careful JB – your ‘childish name calling’ is showing and we all know you abhor such behaviour :o)
_”The success of Generation Rescue bothers the hell out of you,”_
How successful did you feel when the scientists you tried to thank in an advert wrote a letter to the NYT disassociating themselves and their work from you?
Alyric wrote:
“From the piece that you quote, it appears that they are A Champ dopes, since this is their little speech”.
– Oh, boy… can someone please explain to Alyric that this is not a little speech from A-Champ. I would do it, but she already scolded me for calling someone a dope… I’m a bit worried that I might slip again.
Alyric wrote:
“You support these people, right”?
– If you mean A-Champ, then yes I do support them… What’s not to support?
– Sue M.
Kevin:
Would you believe it if I told you those scientist let us know before they wrote the letter re: NYT that they had to do it to protect their careers? If that was true wouldn’t that be a sad statement on where things stand and how much fear there is to take on the vaccine program? I don’t expect this group to believe anything that refutes their happy little world where autism is just a “difference” to be embraced, but there you go.
http://www.kfor.com/Global/story.asp?S=4582318
No one on this blog ever seems to address the recovered kids. The video above is self-explanatory. Are the parents lying? Are the parents motivated by greed? How in the world do you watch a story like this and keep on moving with your denial? I just really don’t get it.
JB
Mr. Handley,
An ad hominem is not the same as an insult.
To be an ad hominem one questions the motivation or character of the person in a way that implies that their arguments are inherently wrong as their personhood is wrong. This also may distract from their actual arguments.
This is an example of what an ad hominem looks like in a three term analysis.
P. Kev criticizes my actions.
P. I say “on this blog with a bunch of self-admitted mentally ill adults, in a group massage of denial support.â€
C. Therefore, Kev is wrong
_”Would you believe it if I told you those scientist let us know before they wrote the letter re: NYT that they had to do it to protect their careers?”_
Er, no, I wouldn’t. Do you honestly believe that this is your private little universe where you can make up any old shit and people will swallow it wholesale? Here’s a quote from the letter they collectively wrote:
_”we believe GenerationRescue’s advertisement, at first appearance an innocuous gesture of appreciation, may actually mislead the public into thinking that the mercury-autism hypothesis has stronger support in the scientific literature than it actually does”_
What that is is a group of people telling you to take a running jump.
_”If that was true wouldn’t that be a sad statement on where things stand and how much fear there is to take on the vaccine program?”_
Yes it would. But its not. Its simply more of your bullshit.
_”http://www.kfor.com/Global/story.asp?S=4582318″_
Evidently you missed the bit where I said ‘ ‘science’. I realise you have a hard time with science JB but you’re going to have to come up with some at some point.
_”No one on this blog ever seems to address the recovered kids.”_
Don’t they? What would you like me to address exactly? Should we put up your one ‘recovered’ kid (as oppose to the ‘thousands’ you previously claimed’) against the two kids who died last year being chelated?
And you _still_ haven’t answered any of my questions.
1) What ‘evidence’ and ‘facts’ are you talking about in your first comment in relation to the geiers?
2) How many ‘next few months’ will there be? When will there be actual evidence?
3) What science did Peter Fletcher add to the MMR debate in the two articles I referenced in my blog post.
A lesson for you JB – money can buy you all the misleading adverts and vanity published ‘papers’ you want but it can’t buy you crediblity or decent science.
Mouse wrote:
“Of course one can’t disprove everything that the Geiers say, because much of it is unable to be disproved – just as you can’t disprove the fact little green martians are controlling the earth”.
– Let’s talk in facts, Mouse. The fact is that the Geiers claim that they saw a link between thimerosal/autism (or neurodevelopmental disorders) after looking at the VSD data. That FACT could be disproven or affirmed if ALL of that same data was available for review, correct? What’s the problem, why the delay?
As far as I know there is no significant data floating around out there which shows that llittle green martians are controlling the earth. If so, feel free to present it (to someone who cares about little green martians, that is).
– Sue M.
Some flaws in the latest Greirs paper are trivial. For example, they claim to be able to determine the rate of new diagnostics of NDs by looking at CDDS data. This is in fact not possible according to CDDS itself. That is, they only report on ‘active clients’, and the differences in the numbers from one quarter to the next reflect net changes between ‘new diagnostics of NDs’ and ‘drop outs’. The number of ‘drop outs’ is of course non-trivial with such a large population of autistics in the CDDS, many of old age. As I have shown, the rate of increase in CDDS-based incidence of autism is still rather high, and will probably only level off in about 10 years.
Mr. Handley wrote:
“No one on this blog ever seems to address the recovered kids. The video above is self-explanatory. Are the parents lying? Are the parents motivated by greed? How in the world do you watch a story like this and keep on moving with your denial? I just really don’t get it.”
I have seen it addressed elsewhere.
Regression to the norm is actually anticipated statistically. The idea that if a person is statistically deviant in some manner, they are likely to move towards the mean over time.
This phenomena is controlled for in proper trials. Equivalent controls have not been placed for any trial of chelation to date.
To assume that a given factor precedes a change and is therefore responsible for it, is known as “post hoc, ergo propter hoc†reasoning and is fallacious. Using this logic an early correlation design user tried to show that coca-cola caused polio.
“How in the world do you watch a story like this and keep on moving with your denial?â€
Don’t assume it is denial, instead pay attention to the arguments being made and address those.
From Mr. Handley’s site:
“The incidence of autism has increased from 1 in 10,000 in the 1970s to 1 in 150 today, an increase of over 6,000%. Many more children have been diagnosed with other neurodevelopmental disorders all considered to be on the same spectrum including Asperger’s, ADHD/ADD, speech delay, and many other developmental delays and learning disabilities.â€
Couple thoughts:
1. Actually what you are referring to is “prevalence rate†not incidence.
2. So, the autism prevalence was 1 in 10,000 in the 70s? So that was the average from the 70s?
3. The rate is now 1 in 150 in the US? That is not what the most recent epidemiology for the US indicates.
4. Also the 1 in 10,000 refers to an early researchers definition of “Autistic Disorder†the 1 in 150 refers to the PDD disorders; so you are comparing apples and sheep.
I can’t believe this passes as an argument:
“The incidence of autism has increased from 1 in 10,000 in the 1970s to 1 in 150 today, an increase of over 6,000%. Many more children have been diagnosed with other neurodevelopmental disorders all considered to be on the same spectrum including Asperger’s, ADHD/ADD, speech delay, and many other developmental delays and learning disabilities.â€
Why not go back further? Before the 1940s the incidence was zero. That’s an increase of infinity! Oh my god. The sky is falling.
The increase in the prevalence of autism would actually be something to worry about if what ‘autism’ is didn’t change through time. That is, if the proportion of epilepsy and mental retardation in the autistic population had remained the same throughout the ‘autism epidemic’, we would be right to claim that there’s something going on. But the fact is that the proportion of epilepsy and mental retardation in the ever-changing ‘autism’ definition have dropped considerably and continue to drop, exactly as a ‘broadening criteria’ theory would predict.
The argument I just made has not been refuted by anyone in the mercury camp. I’m starting to think they just don’t have an answer.
Joseph wrote:
“Why not go back further? Before the 1940s the incidence was zero. That’s an increase of infinity! Oh my god. The sky is falling.”
Strange isn’t it? Aren’t these folks just amazing in how they think – and this is ‘normal’. Some time down the track – like in about five years at my current rate of progress I’d like to write about this ‘cleave together in the face of all the odds – well all the facts really’. it has to be some kind of group phenomenon what with all the invective being hurled about how the ND crowd just can’t stand the success of the GR crowd. Sounds just like the schoolyard, which is a big clue that this is a group phenomenon. It must be frustrating when the ND crowd doesn’t respond as predicted – well they wouldn’t would they since they don’t do group think.
On the invective side – noting Handley’s impressive contributions, how about a little competition to hunt up the best of the ad hominem. So far I think Handley’s in front, just a little ahead of John Best Jnr’s contributions on his own blog. Sue M’s not really in it – I think she’s trying for the sophisticated approach and that comes off a little differently. Maybe the Diva could donate a crumpled tiara as the main prize.
JBH: “The success of Generation Rescue bothers the hell out of you…”
What? If you were successful, you’d have managed to convince much of the world of the insane beliefs you have. Sadly, you’re one of those who like to delude themselves (a “coping strategy” which *is* part of the symptomatology of mental illness).
You have no supporters here in Finland, and nor do you in the United Kingdom. Your insanity only flourishes in the US because of the way in why healthcare is funded (basically as a commercial enterprise).
Grow up.
BC: “I’ll see your ‘please fuck yourself’ and raise you a ‘you’re not smart enough to play, but if you’re aching to, then bring it on beeotch!’.”
LoL
Isn’t it interesting to see how mercury in vaccines given to their kids has made these parents fucking loopy?!
It never ceases to amaze me how this phenomenon happens. Maybe I should offer something quite reasonable at fucking immense cost (“Sure, I’ll help you… you ‘ll have to mortgage your house for one session, and you’ll need twenty sessions, but it’ll be worth it in the end!”)… maybe the cognitive dissonance could be sent the other way… then tell them that what was done with them happens to be available at their local education authority’s own special needs unit…
… and take a digicam pic of their faces! 🙂
Their pics would look good on http://www.fuckwitsrus.com LoL
It will be interesting to see how this blog continues in the next few months. As more stories are published. As more people wake up to reality. As more scientists speak. As more studies are done. As more lies from the CDC are uncovered.
What will happen to Kev Leitch’s blog? Will you slowly start to acknowledge certain facts? Will you start to admit that you knew all along but there was just “no proof”. What will happen here? Only time will tell…
Here’s a question for you all… What if the Geiers aren’t lying? What then? Wake up.
– Sue M.
Alyric wrote:
“Sue M’s not really in it – I think she’s trying for the sophisticated approach and that comes off a little differently”.
– In my most sophisticated way… let me ask you, Alyric. Have you come to the realization that you were pretty dopey in your comments about A-Champ and the WHO?
– Sue M.
Sue M. Said: It will be interesting to see how this blog continues in the next few months. As more stories are published. As more people wake up to reality.
Well stories (or movies) aren’t science Sue but I know I don’t have to remind you of that. Now if the ‘scientists’ like the Geiers continue to publish stories instead of science, it will be business as usual.
Let me be the first to say this for the record. If some sort of conclusive evidence should appear in the next few days, months, years, whatever, I will publicly admit that I was wrong all along and apologize for ever doubting you. Nothing will forgive your jumping to conclusions well in advance of the evidence at hand, but I will admit that I was wrong. OK? It’s on record.
Your turn. What happens when rates of new autism diagnoses remain stable long after thimerosal has been removed from pediatric vaccines? I’d expect an apology but that really won’t cut it in this case.
Clone wrote:
” If some sort of conclusive evidence should appear in the next few days, months, years, whatever, I will publicly admit that I was wrong all along and apologize for ever doubting you. Nothing will forgive your jumping to conclusions well in advance of the evidence at hand, but I will admit that I was wrong. OK? It’s on record”.
– Perfect. Here’s the thing, though. If the “conclusive evidence” that you require proves “us” to be right, can you really fault me for jumping to conclusions? Possibly I am just smarter or have more common sense than you 🙂 .
Clone wrote:
“Your turn. What happens when rates of new autism diagnoses remain stable long after thimerosal has been removed from pediatric vaccines? I’d expect an apology but that really won’t cut it in this case”.
– If the rates of autism go up or remain stable long after thimerosal has been COMPLETELY removed (no flu shots for mommies, etc)… All out… then I will say that I was wrong. I won’t, however, apologize for talking out the need for the removal of thimerosal from vaccines. Should I apologize for that? Out of curiosity what do you mean by the last line of your statement that I referenced above … (I’d expect an apology but that really won’t cut it in this case).
– Sue M.
The last line is completely clear.
Derailed wrote:
“The last line is completely clear”.
– Well, it isn’t to me… Since Clone was clearly referencing me, I would think that he can elaborate.
Thanks for butting in though…
– Sue M.
Sue M. states: “Thanks for butting in though…”
More proof here that Sue M is a complete troll; she acts as if she owns this thread.
derailed wrote:
“More proof here that Sue M is a complete troll; she acts as if she owns this thread”.
– I don’t really feel as if I am trying to own this thread. Since I was clearly asking Clone for clarification… I figured that he would be the best one to answer my question and didn’t need people butting in just for the sake of butting in…
– Sue M.
I’m confused, Sue.
I always thought the premise behind a thimerosal-autism link has always been that autism incidence increased along with the increase in use of TCV’s. Which is why pre-1990 there was little autism and post-1990 (after HepB, et al. came on the market) there was a subsequent explosion. So the idea is that there’s a correlation between the amount of thimerosal a child receives and their likelihood of becoming autistic.
Now, there should be little argument that thimerosal has been removed from the vast majority of childhood vaccines. Sure, a child may get the DT with thimerosal, or that child or a pregnant woman may get a mercury-containing flu shot. But the large majority of children and pregnant women don’t get those shots anyway. I think trying to imply that they’re confounders (at least until the day they’re made mandatory for school or day care entry) is a red herring.
So my question is this – why does thimerosal have to be completely and utterly removed from vaccines in order for you to be convinced? Shouldn’t the fact that thim content has been reduced dramatically over the last few years subsequently result in a similar decline in autism?
Sue writes:
– If the rates of autism go up or remain stable long after thimerosal has been COMPLETELY removed (no flu shots for mommies, etc)… All out… then I will say that I was wrong. I won’t, however, apologize for talking out the need for the removal of thimerosal from vaccines. Should I apologize for that? Out of curiosity what do you mean by the last line of your statement that I referenced above … (I’d expect an apology but that really won’t cut it in this case).
But Sue, don’t you agree that the average dose of thimerosal given to children has dropped considerably starting in 1999? Wouldn’t we then expect that the number of autistics in the 3-5 age range in the CDDS should be crashing towards zero by now? In fact, it continues to go up, and current trends suggest that it will be a decade before it levels off.
And no, you should not apologize for your effort to remove thimerosal from vaccines. It’s a noble effort, as I’ve noted.
BTW, I’ve posted a Mercury FABNAQ. Contributions and rebuttals are welcome.
Hi Sue,
You wrote
â€It will be interesting to see how this blog continues in the next few months. As more stories are published. As more people wake up to reality. As more scientists speak. As more studies are done. As more lies from the CDC are uncovered.
What will happen to Kev Leitch’s blog? Will you slowly start to acknowledge certain facts? Will you start to admit that you knew all along but there was just “no proofâ€. What will happen here? Only time will tell…
Here’s a question for you all… What if the Geiers aren’t lying? What then? Wake up.â€
Okay Sue, I’ll bite:
I do not think a few more people claiming autism = mercury is going to do jack. What you need at this point is well designed epidemiology and controlled trials of chelation, not shortcuts…
If I am wrong I will work earnestly to help remove mercury from kids. What I would not do is apologize for insisting upon the scientific method or criticizing illogic. I would also cite this whole case as an example of how science should not be done and remind folks that the autism = mercury advocates was a rare case of pseudo-science advocates that managed to be right in spite of trampling over the scientific method. In other words, they managed to be right in spite of themselves.
Also your argument to the future (you are arguing that something will occur in future which you can not possibly know; unless this is the happy moment that you have selected to unveil a long hidden ESP ability) can just as easily be spun back on you. So let me say “It will be interesting to see how EoHarm continues in the next few months. As more stories are published. As more people wake up to reality. As more scientists speak. As more studies are done. As more lies from GR are uncovered.â€
And I would ask you:
“What will happen to Kev Leitch’s blog? Will you slowly start to acknowledge certain facts? Will you start to admit that you knew all along but there was just “no proofâ€. What will happen here? Only time will tell…â€
Golly..that works both ways!
I do not think the Geiers were lying about the CDC giving them the run around. That doesn’t mean that it actually was a run-around however.
What you can not do is conclude that the CDC knows autism=mercury based on this.
You wrote “Wake upâ€
Et tu, Sue…
The problem with the Geiers is that because they don’t generally do real research – the kind funded by the NIH, etc. – that they don’t know how the real scientific or governmental world works. So a coverup or runaround to them is an inconvenience to researchers who actually know how to navigate the system.
_”What will happen to Kev Leitch’s blog? Will you slowly start to acknowledge certain facts? Will you start to admit that you knew all along but there was just “no proofâ€. What will happen here? Only time will tell…”_
Damn Sue, you’re becoming even less effective than usual. Is your contribution to this blog now reduced to going ‘what if….’?
I remember when you first became a regular on here. It was all about the science then. Slowly as times progressed and its become obvious there _is_ no science, you moved to venerating David Kirby. Now you seemed reduced to imagining a future that might support your beliefs.
_”Here’s a question for you all… What if the Geiers aren’t lying? What then? Wake up.”_
I’m sure they’re not lying – they’re just incompetent. I’m going to put this in the plainest way I know in the hopes you might get it internalised:
You can take a whole load of sewage and you can put it into the best sewage sorting machine the world has ever known. It can make it look neat and it can make it look tidy – hell, it might even reduce the pungency of the odour a bit – but at the end of the day, what that big fancy machine puts out the other end is still horseshit.