In a recent post, the Age of Autism highlight the death of a baby girl where MMR was found to be a contributing cause. The US government settled with the parents, which is exactly what they should have done. The vaccine was at fault and this child died as a result.
But of course the anti-vaccinationists at AoA can’t leave it at that. They say:
God rest her little soul and comfort her parents, who tried to do right by her and ended up losing her. No, we don’t want to see children dying of preventable childhood diseases, don’t bother us with that canard. We also don’t want to see an ounce of prevention turn into a pound of death.
An ounce of prevention and a pound of death.
Lets establish a few facts shall we? The fact that children are dying right now of vaccine preventable diseases is no canard. Two have died in the UK since 2006 of measles. 345,000 died worldwide of measles in 2005. To belittle and dismiss the deaths of these people – mostly children – as ‘a canard’ is nothing short of evil. Using this little girls deaths to get a cheap shot in at a vaccine that has helped bring about a drop in worldwide deaths from 873,000 in 1999 to 345,000 less than a decade later goes beyond cynical to almost pathological.
What needs to happen for these people to see what it is they are promoting? Should we transport those 345,000 deaths from some dusty locale far, far away to New York? Atlanta? Washington DC? Manchester? Edinburgh? Would it seem real enough then to these soccer moms and weak men desperate to please their Mother Warriors? Would they still be burbling on about an ounce of prevention?
Lets have a look at the VAERS database for 2006. The year Madyson Williams received her MMR shot. According to VAERS there were 22 incidents involving ‘death’ and ‘MMR’. One of these reports stated:
the rpt stated info was recv as “hearsay” through small town grapevine
Another:
The reporter stated “a little girl up the street died after an allergic reaction to MMR.”
Another:
The consumer reported that she “heard of a patient who died after the second MMR shot.”
Another:
Information has been received from a consumer concerning her neighbor’s son who on an unspecified date was vaccinated with a dose of MMR II (Enders-Edmonston, Jeryl Lynn, Wistar RA 27/3). On an unspecified date, post vaccination, the patient developed autism and eventually jumped in a lake and died…….The reporter refused to provide information beyond what was on the VAERS form . The reporter refused to provide the name and telephone number of the actual parents of the child.
There is a type of person who seems to feel it necessary to make everything – everything – about them. I hate vaccines therefore ‘my neighbours son’ died of them. I hate vaccines therefore ‘a little girl up the street’ died from them. the AoA article shows exactly the same casual disregard for human life in pursuance of their agenda. Disgusting and immoral.
Left Brain Right Brain 
The thinking seems to be that any child harmed by a vaccine, or killed by a vaccine would never had faced any problems if there were no vaccines in the world.
To me, it seems logical that any child who’s health is so fragile that they die from a very small number of a weakened form of the viruses in the MMR, the child is much, much more likely to die (compared to typical children) of any one of wild-type viruses alone or in combination with whatever would infect the child while infected with measles, mumps or rubella.
Ideally this child would not have been so medically fragile that the MMR vaccine could kill her, and ideally we all should know in advance what is going to happen to our children so we can act to prevent it, but this is the real world, not a fantasy world, and we don’t know exactly which 1 of hundreds of thousands or a million kids is going to react badly to a vaccine.
The answer, according to the gang at AoA, is to stop vaccinating with the MMR altogether according to GR’s recommended vaccine schedule children should never get a live vaccine. I believe the ideal vaccine schedule of the AoA gang is no vaccines at all ever. JB Handley said his youngest child would never be vaccinated (with the possible exception of the rubella vaccine once she’s old enough to make her own medical decisions, at age 18 or older apparently).
Further, if the parents of this little girl were following the general advice of the antivaccine bunch, they’d have taken her to a measles, mumps and rubella parties (whenever an outbreak came near them, presumably). They’d deliberately infect her with the wild-type germs because that’s the healthy way to build immunity to the germs… and of course, each child then can infect others, and that’s all good. Cyclical measles epidemics are all good.
And that’s just for measles, mumps and rubella. JB Handley’s daughter will never be protected against tetanus. Apparently, Lenny Schafer’s 30ish age daughter will never be protected against tetanus. Maybe they’ll just go to a tenatus party … no that won’t work because getting tetanus doesn’t confer lifelong immunity to tetanus (neither do vaccines, you need to get a booster every so often) and if you get tetanus you are in a heap of trouble since the treatments don’t just resolve the disease easily like antibiotics can do for some infections.
The antivaxers haven’t thought this all through, obviously. Do they throw polio and diphtheria parties? Ideally, how old is the child when you take him to a mumps party? They just have a kneejerk reaction against vaccines and they want to everyone else to agree with them, and obviously they aren’t above using the vilest of exploitation and emotional manipulation to do it.
Maybe someday there will be a reporting system like VAERS where people can report a child that dies or ends up with brain damage or other adverse outcome because an antivaxer’s child sneezes on them or spreads an enteric disease to them through his/her hands. Unfortunately, if a child dies or ends up with brain damage from a case of wild-type measles there’s no one to sue, unless maybe a parent could sue an antivax parent for deliberately contributing to the spread of disease.
It seems to me that there is a law in some places against people deliberately infecting another person with a disease, maybe that would apply in such a case.
And, of course, when you point out just how many of these people have serious pre-existing illnesses (about 25%+ of the VAERS sample above, and by far the best reported samples) the anti-vaxxers jump on this as an example of how ‘dangerous vaccines are’, rather than example of why those that can vaccinate, should vaccinate.
Personally speaking, I’m glad I’m up to date with my vaccines. Many of the people with autism I work with have difficulty identifying and acting upon feelings of illness, either in concept or in practice.
Interesting point Ms Clark; and hasn’t there been legal remedies sought for infection of other people with AIDS? Surely that could be readily adapted for the anti-vaxxers deliberately choosing to infect innocent passers-by, especially if those innocents are very small, very vulnerable babies too young to be vaccinated. There’s an emotional tug at the heartstrings – small baby harmed by stubborn stupidity. Surely they could be sued for damages and with greater success than the Omnibus is likely to have. It’s very odd that it hasn’t happened already, very odd, because the chain of cause and effect is so very clear and lawyers should be waking up to this cash cow now that the numbers of litigable (?word)parents are approaching the commercially viable.
‘Would it seem real enough then to these soccer moms and weak men desperate to please their Mother Warriors? ‘
seems to be stereotyping, and borderline sexist.
Other than that, great post.
Kev, why bring up VAERS? A look through the VAERS material reveals many of the assertions of harm by vaccines in that database are without serious foundation.
In the case in question, you are in agreement that vaccine was responsible for the death of the child, If so are the problems with VAERS material? Why mention it. I can see two reasons. One to refute anyone who tries to use VAERS to show MMR deaths are more common than we are led to believe. The other would be to cast doubt on the conclusion in this particular case.
Mrs. Clark. Do you know why other than proximity of the death to the vaccination date as to why the vaccine was blamed? Is there any evidence the child had problems with her immune system? Some children have allergic reactions to vaccines which would not be expected in “wild” exposures.
Unless there is good evidence of contributing factors, I think it best to conclude that in this case the vaccine was responsible and the child would not have died otherwise.
The extreme rarity of such events does not rule out their existence. I know that some will glom onto it to wildly overstate the “danger” of vaccinations just as some use VAERS for the same purpose.
However, the only way to combat the agenda of the anti-vaxers is to present the evidence in full, with unbiased descriptions which are devoid of speculation of what it means. The truth will win out.
The case has nothing to do with autism. Despite this, its appearance on a blog about autism would seem to bolster claims of an autism/vaccination connection. It’s enough to make one cry out in angst.
You may be unaware that the anti-vaccinationists at AoA believe VAERS to be an excellent source of data. I was comparing the reality of VAERS to their opinion of it as an example of the reality of children dying of measles in the hundreds of thousands compared to their opinion of ‘an ounce of prevention’ turning into a ‘pound of death’.
“Would it seem real enough then to these soccer moms and weak men desperate to please their Mother Warriors? Would they still be burbling on about an ounce of prevention?”
wow, Kev… remember our old bud Michael Savage (radio shock jock), who told us that our kids have autism because their dads are too weak to discipline them appropriately? Would you buy into that perspective?
Or on a similar note… Do you REALLY think that Dan Olmsted and David Kirby are “weak men trying to please Mother Warriors??” Given that neither have kids with autism, I doubt it.
I honestly don’t think any of this conversation is about the battle of the sexes – or about men who need to grow a pair!
I do think, though, that you have a very good point – that it really is about perspective. If you’ve never gone through a vaccine-preventable epidemic, you’re less likely to worry about the epidemic, and more likely to worry about the vaccines…
Lisa (autism.about.com)
“Age of Autism use appalling scare tactics”
Isn’t this a “dog bites man” sort of story?
Couldn’t you run that blog title every week?
I didn’t say that the vaccine didn’t cause her death, Mayfly.
And if it was an allergy, they would have noticed it earlier and treated it. From my understanding, allergies show up very soon after the vaccine and so far haven’t caused any deaths in children. Though I have to check on that. I don’t have time at the moment to check.
The only logical thing that would allow a vaccine with a few weakened viruses in it to kill a child is that the child had some kind of very serious underlying disorder, perhaps undiagnosed. Logically, this must be the answer, that or that the vaccine, in fact, was not the precipitating factor in her death but was coincidental. That could be the case, but the vaccine court is set up to decide in favor of cases where it looks like the vaccine might have caused harm.
Do you honestly think that this child would have fared better if she had been exposed to wild type measles, mumps or rubella on that day instead of the MMR. Considering the fact that wild measles, particularly, depresses the immune system and can allow other sometimes deadly infections to take over?
Ms Clark, thanks for the explanation about the swiftness of the onset of allergic reactions to a vaccination.
I didn’t say you proclaimed the child did not die from the vaccination. I stated it was wrong to suggest the child would have been killed by a wild virus without knowing more about the case. In general your theory makes much sense. It’s application to a particular case, again without specific knowledge, is what I found objectionable.
Sorry, I misunderstood you.
No we don’t know if a case of a wild form of a one of the three viruses would have killed her. It’s just extremely likely that if she died because of an infection caused by the weakened form of these viruses (or one of them) then the much, much more virulent form of one or all of them would have been just as harmful to her. That is if the vaccine actually is what caused her death. If it was something else, not related to the vaccine, then her reaction to the vaccine doesn’t say anything about her reaction to one of the live viruses in the more virulent form.
My point, really is that the antivaxers would say that it would be fine if one of their kids with an active measles infection had sneezed on her, because they reason that measles is safer than a vaccine for it.
It’s ridiculous, and a potentially deadly assumption to make, but there it is.
Not at all! I think there is a *world* of difference between someone denigrating autistic people and someone denigrating antivax people using the death of a child to further an agenda.
The need to please ‘Mother warriors’ has nothing to do with autism and everything to do with anti-vaccinationism. I’m not sure I would put David into that category but Dan Olmsted? A man who enjoys ‘outing’ autistic people? Yeah, he’s a weak man trying to please his ‘betters’ (or more accurately, the future purchasers of his book).
I noticed in the gossip news video that is on LBRB’s side-bar now, the one about Jenny at the Playboy mansion fundraiser that they skipped the “rescue angels” and went for what would appear to be “rescue devils” young women wearing red horns on their heads. I find the whole “bacchanal/orgy fundraiser” for autism to be stomach turning. The fundraiser party was attended by loads of women running around in their underwear, some of which consisted of straps of black leather. I guess it’s just me, but that’s really gross.
Back to the question of anaphylaxis following vaccines in children, I found this
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/112/4/815
It said that in the VSD they had looked at more than 7 million incidents of children and adolescents getting vaccinated and they found 5 cases of anaphylaxis, and all were treated successfully (none died). The rate for anaphylaxis was 0.65 per million
The article discusses studies of anaphylaxis following vaccine administration in some other countries (anaphylaxis was very rare in all of them) those studies involved more millions of vaccinations. None of the studies reported any deaths as far as I could tell.
I wonder how many children of antivaxers die in car accidents on the way home from trips to the health-food store or while camping or swimming? Or do children of antivaxers just never, ever die?
Only the good die young, Ms Clark. And since we are the scapegoat scourge of the world we shall live on forever. 🙂
And what was that? They all let it go to hell at Heffie’s place? What can we expect from a person who maintains a goal of men having a (genital mutilation?) pretty penis? Not that this points out anybody’s level of awareness about peoples body types before age 40, lol.
What I am told is that this was a complicated case in which it is not at all clear that the vaccine did any harm. Tie goes to the runner in vaccine court, as it should – but it’s too bad that every instance of it gets held up as evidence that vaccines are dangerous, when in truth very few such cases are probably vaccine-related.
Re; “Lets establish a few facts shall we? The fact that children are dying right now of vaccine preventable diseases is no canard. Two have died in the UK since 2006 of measles. 345,000 died worldwide of measles in 2005. To belittle and dismiss the deaths of these people – mostly children – as ‘a canard’ is nothing short of evil”
Haha sorry people but really “lets establish a few facts shall we?”
Fist of all, I refuse to look at this “world wide” as the CDC/FDA does for it does not give us accurate information on OUR current situation.
So here the recents stats on Measles in Canada, US, and UK. (taken right from the famous CDC/FDA websites themselves)
Measles: Canada 2008
Twenty-eight confirmed cases were reported to the CMRSS.
Only three cases have been hospitalized. (which means 89% without complications and 100% recovered and are now immune to it for life!!!)
Measles: USA 2008
131 comfirmed cases of Measles
None of the 131 patients died, but 15 were hospitalized (which means, again 89% had NO complications and 100% recovered from it & now has life long immunity!!!)
A quote from the FDA website
“The vaccine is considered highly effective but not perfect, however about ½ the 131 cases reporterd were not vaccinated.”
~Hmm which means that ½ the cases reported WAS vaccinated… so that’s what?
A 50/50 chance of being protected?
Real comforting isnt it… *SIGH*
Measles in UK 2008:
461 comfirmed cases of measles with 1 fatality (Which means 99.99% recovered)
This years fatality was a British 17-year-old with an underlying immunodeficiency.
In 2006: A 13-year-old boy became the first person in the UK in 14 years to die from measles. The boy was suffering from an underlying lung condition.
So in other words, yes measles are confirmed. But no one dies of it unless you already have an underlying condition. Also this is saying that since 1992 only 2 ppl have died total in all of Canada, USA and the UK. And those who recovered (99.99999% now have life long immunity) Yet how many children suffer from Autism or die of SIDS DUE TO THE VACCINES? well lets see… 1 in 6 children have a neurological disorder, 1 in 67 kids diagosed with Autism, 82% of SIDS cases studied, died within hours or days after the DTaP shots.
THERE’S SOME FACTS PEOPLE!!!!!!
PS, if you are smart and no longer want to follow the “herd” (as the leaders like to call us) into the slatter house and want to start thinking for yourselves… feel free to click the link and become EDUCATED!!!!!
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=31499535675
Madison’s Mom said “his years fatality was a British 17-year-old with an underlying immunodeficiency.
In 2006: A 13-year-old boy became the first person in the UK in 14 years to die from measles. The boy was suffering from an underlying lung condition…. So in other words, yes measles are confirmed. But no one dies of it unless you already have an underlying condition.”
So you are cool with the deaths because the boys had underlying medical conditions, right?
Why do you think that children like mine (who has a severe genetic heart condition) should die? Is it because you think they are not valuable human beings? Do you think that children with cystic fibrosis, Long-QT, mitochondrial disorders, Down Syndrome and other genetic disorders should just die from vaccine preventable diseases because they are not “perfect”?
There is a name for that kind of thinking: eugenics.
Madison’s Mom continued with “PS, if you are smart and no longer want to follow the “herd” (as the leaders like to call us) into the slatter house and want to start thinking for yourselves”
I am sorry, there is no way I would want to think like you. Thinking only certain children deserve to live is actually quite evil.
Oh, and it is basically false that only unhealthy children die from measles, it happens to seemingly healthy children too. It also causes deafness, blindness and permanent neurological damage in one out 5000 cases:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11738762? … “We doubt measles infection ever eliminated mainly weak children; it always killed a broad spectrum of children, most of whom were “fit to survive”. Hence, it seems unlikely that measles vaccination has contributed to the survival of more frail children.”
Are you giving some sort of guarantee that none of them will develop SSPE?
Your version of both statistics and “facts” is rather limited. Sorry to put it that way, but that is a fact if you believe what you wrote.
First, check the stats–about 80% or more of the measles cases in this year’s outbreak were unvaccinated. I think I got 89% when I ran the numbers.
Then, you have to take into account the number of people exposed–a random sample would give something like 99 out of 100 were vaccinated. That would imply that about 10000 people were exposed, of which something like 20 (0.2%) of the vaccinated got sick, while most of the unvaccinated got sick.
That was pretty sloppy, but the point is clear–the vaccines worked well.
HCN,Oh where do I begin… and this will be the last of my posts because I really could not be bothered with ppl who take what I say out of text… and fallaciously make me out to be “evil” as you say. So here it goes:
Re; “So you are cool with the deaths because the boys had underlying medical conditions, right?”
1st of all I am NOT ok with any deaths especially involving children and I don’t appreciate you insinuating that. Simply stating the FACTS is all. Showing you that the number of fatalities caused (secondarily) from the measles is FAR less than that of the vaccines itself. There are approx 400,000,000 (400 MILLION) people in the US, CANADA and UK combined and 2 people died from Measles in the last 14 years. Sorry but that says that it’s NOT the measles that’s killing us.
Re; “Why do you think that children like mine (who has a severe genetic heart condition) should die? Is it because you think they are not valuable human beings? Do you think that children with cystic fibrosis, Long-QT, mitochondrial disorders, Down Syndrome and other genetic disorders should just die from vaccine preventable diseases because they are not “perfect”?
Like I said, I don’t know where you get the idea that I think ANY child should die? I can only assume that you are unable to read plain English, so let me spell it out for you…
“I don’t want to see any child die EVER!!!”
Now with that said, I see kids dieing and becoming disabled everyday from vaccines. This is far more than 2 in 14 years, pal. And for the record, my daughter has AUTISM (she developed it right after the MMR shot) so don’t you dare imply that I think a disabled child’s life is any less valuable.. You are completely out of line you ought to be ashammed of yourself!
And another thing, VACCINES DO NOT PREVENT ANY DISEASES, never have and never will. http://www.new.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=33326428770&h=GnVNx
You really need to stop dictating false information.
Re; “I am sorry, there is no way I would want to think like you. Thinking only certain children deserve to live is actually quite evil.”
Is ‘evil’ your word of the day or something?
To think like me? Someone who refuses to be blackmailed, or controlled, or LIED too. Someone who believes that human life is more VALUABLE than the multi billion dollar industry run by the Government and Pharmacutical companies, or like someone who dedicates most of her spare time educating herself and becoming an advocate for the hundreds of thousands of innocent children that have been “VACCINE INJURED!”
Yea… I can see why you wouldn’t want to think like me… you are brainwashed and juvinile!
For the record Re;” Thinking only certain children deserve to live is actually quite evil.”
Is exactly what you PRO VAXers think by saying that vaccines are for the “greater good” which means that for all the children it does affect (Autism, Asthma, Exzema, SIDS, Shaken Baby Syndrome (and yes its caused by vaccines in many cases), Gulf War Syndrome… I can go on if you like) is worth it to save a few ppl getting Measles, or Chicken Pox, or the FLU…
For crying out loud, I would not want to THINK LIKE YOU!!!!
Wake up and break away from the Mass Deceptive Society we live in… it would be for the “Greater Good”!!!!
Sullivan, You are just as clueless as the last guy…
I’m just going to make this brief… so then hopefully you don’t get confused as to what I’m actually saying….
Re; “Are you giving some sort of guarantee that none of them will develop SSPE?”
What does this have to do with any of the facts I gave you? 1 in 100,000 people infected with measles develop SSPE… which was not reported in any of those cases meantioned above? Here is your head at?
Re; “Your version of both statistics and “facts” is rather limited. Sorry to put it that way, but that is a fact if you believe what you wrote. First, check the stats—about 80% or more of the measles cases in this year’s outbreak were unvaccinated. I think I got 89% when I ran the numbers.”
Not sure where you got your information (or numbers) from but not from the CDC or FDA… I cut and pasted the information I gave you right from their sites so if you feel they are wrong then take it up with them…
here it is again incase you forgot:
“By July 30, 2008, the number of cases had grown to 131. Of these, about half involved children whose parents rejected vaccination. The 131 cases occurred in 7 different outbreaks. There were no deaths, and 15 hospitalizations.”
So if you want to talk about %’s again, what is the percentage of 15 hospitalizations out of 301,139,947+ people?
The answer is 0.000005%.
Re; “That was pretty sloppy, but the point is clear—the vaccines worked well.”
I am sorry who is the sloppy one? And I am sorry again, maybe I missed something but where did you PROVE that vaccines work well???
No wonder the Government has no problem controlling it’s population… There a bunch of idiots in this world… ”Sorry to put it that way, but that is a fact if you believe what you wrote.” Sound familier?
Sigh… so good luck with finding evidence that vaccines are safe OR effective because there are so such data!!!!
Madison’s Mom predictably whined “1st of all I am NOT ok with any deaths especially involving children and I don’t appreciate you insinuating that. ”
Except that you actually did write “So in other words, yes measles are confirmed. But no one dies of it unless you already have an underlying condition.”
How in what way does that not condone the death of children with underlying conditions? You were literally writing off the death of those children because they were not perfect.
Here is what you do HERE… not on your Facebook account: Post the real actual scientific evidence that the MMR (which never contained thimerosal and has been in use in the USA since 1971) is worse than mumps, rubella and measles. It has to be something that is in the real medical literature and I can access from my local medical school library. No books, no news reports, no redacted papers (like a particular Lancet article), no random websites and no papers from “if you pay us we will publish it” journals like Medical Hypothesis.
Show us the actual literature that proves what you said here “Is exactly what you PRO VAXers think by saying that vaccines are for the “greater good” which means that for all the children it does affect (Autism, Asthma, Exzema, SIDS, Shaken Baby Syndrome (and yes its caused by vaccines in many cases), Gulf War Syndrome…”……
Something like this:
http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/160/3/302
Hint: use PubMed
Madison’s Mom quotes an autism rate of 1 in 67 children, what is the source of that statistic? I have seen this number used on a few blogs in the past few weeks but have not been able to find a source. I did find a blog that had been trying to estimate the number of military dependants with autism, they were forced to estimate a number of factors and ended up using 1:67 because of missing data, but this could hardly be considered a source.
HCN, I feel like I’m talking to a 4th grader here… the way you twist everything I say into your own sick delusions is absolutely repulsive. You are a sad individual. I really feel for you… but that aside, you are going to feel foolish (and not to mention responsible) for allowing yourself to be deceived and utterly brainwashed into believing that injecting any child especially your own with toxins like Mercury, Aluminum, Formaldehyde is actually doing them good.
The truth is definitely coming out and there’s nothing the government and the big fat PHARMA can do about it…
you will see, I guarantee!!!
I want you to look at the big picture here… REALLY LOOK….
If vaccines were JUST introduced this year rather then 200 years ago (where we’ve been raised to not question it) and the doctor said to you at your baby’s 2 month checkup that he has a needle he wants to inject into your child that contains the ingredients mentioned above (Mercury, Aluminum, Formaldehyde in case you forgot) He says we wants you to believe that it’s going to save your child from getting Diphtheria, Tetanus, and Whooping cough ALTHOUGH it has NEVER been proven that it has or will… and then he says that I also can not guarantee the safety of this vaccine for that also has never been proven… But I really want you to take my word on it (because I am you doctor and this is what I’ve been bought… I mean taught) what would your HONEST reaction be?
And when he says that although I have no “scientific proof” I thought I’d also mention that MANY parents have reported their child dieing of SIDS hours and days after this shot… But don’t worry because the government told me that its just a coincidence… and of course I don’t have proof that it “doesn’t” cause SIDS either because there is no data showing this conclusion anywhere….this is simply what I see parents report back to me everyday in my practice.
Oh and just to let you know, that although you are taking a risk today with this shot… you will also have to come back in for the same shots (and ingredients) in 2 months and then again 2 months after that… you know, JUST TO MAKE SURE it works.
And of course, because I am a GOOD doctor I’d also like to inform you that (once again there is no “scientific studies” on this) but if your child does survive these shots containing all those neurotoxins, he will be getting the MMR shot at 1yr… this shot however has NO mercury in it but in my practice, again, I have had MANY parents report extreme regressed speech and development in their child right after it…then ultimately diagnosed with an irreversible disorder called Autism. But once again the government has told me that ALL those cases don’t count because “their” studies don’t show any causation. I hope that makes you feel better!
Take away the perception that the vaccines ever eradicated any disease because that has been disproved over and over again… and really ask yourself after reading this, if you would let that doctor blackmail you into willingly allowing him to poison you child for no other reason than financial gain?
Because essentially that’s EXACTLY what’s going on here(minus the actual information and true warnings given from that doctor about the ingredients and serious side effects) LOL that would never happen…
Now I know that you are going to have ANOTHER juvenile comment to this but really I don’t care anymore. I’ve given you enough ammunition to WANT to educate yourself on this matter (because clearly you are NOT) so I am no longer interested in what you do, for you are a big/girl and can make your own “decisions and choices”… YES IT’S TRUE, YOU ACTUALLY HAVE THAT RIGHT… although the government would make you believe otherwise.
I see another post asking about my stats and you also mentioned let me quote “Here is what you do HERE… not on your Facebook account: Post the real actual scientific evidence that the MMR (which never contained thimerosal and has been in use in the USA since 1971) is worse than mumps, rubella and measles”
and “Show us the actual literature that proves what you said here “Is exactly what you PRO VAXers think by saying that vaccines are for the “greater good” which means that for all the children it does affect (Autism, Asthma, Exzema, SIDS, Shaken Baby Syndrome (and yes its caused by vaccines in many cases), Gulf War Syndrome”
This is why I invited you to my Group because IT’S ALL THERE and there’s plenty of it!!!
Now here’s my question for you… Post the real actual scientific evidence that the MMR (which never contained thimerosal and has been in use in the USA since 1971) is “NOT” worse than mumps, rubella and measles.
Now remember I said EVIDENCE not literature because all that is, is the government writing down on paper what they are saying to us and that’s ALL HORSE SHIT!!!!
I gave you plenty to evidence in my last post, click the damn link and learn a little buddy… and in case that’s not enough for you here’s another link for you:
http://www.brainguardmd.com/
http://www.brainguardmd.com/pdf/massevidence.pdf ~this one has my daughter in it, Dr Moulden is a brilliant man and I’d love to see you try and dispute someone with his medical backgroud and credentials!!!
http://www.new.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=33326428770&h=GnVNx
http://www.drlwilson.com/Articles/VACCINES.08.htm
There you go, some COLD HARD FACTS!!!
BTW, you can apologize to me once you come to your senses… and then I suggest you join my groups to become part of a healthier, immune stronger, independent team!!!
Re: Madison’s Mom
I went to the facebook page you referenced and yes you typed the 1 in 67 there as well as in this thread. My question is what is the source of that number?
My honest reaction would be to find a new doctor. Any doctor who says or implies that there is and will be no proof that vaccines work is not someone I would spend my time or money with.
As to the question of what we would do if vaccines were invented today–let’s look at the reaction of people when the polio vaccine was introduced:
I won’t go through every point in your discussion. I know you will likely find this annoying, but if you are going to cite Dr. Moulden as a reliable source, this is pointless.
Re; “My honest reaction would be to find a new doctor. Any doctor who says or implies that there is and will be no proof that vaccines work is not someone I would spend my time or money with.”
You said it all right there, THERE IS NO PROOF!!! Hahaha goes to show just how ridiculous you really are!!!
PS, when did you actually ASK your doctor if there is proof that vaccines work? I’d really like to get the name and # to this doctor, because if he says there is, he’s flat out lying to you and prob should be fired….
Re; “but if you are going to cite Dr. Moulden as a reliable source, this is pointless”
Are you seriously kidding me/or yourself rather? Who else do you know that graduated TOP OF HIS CLASS while achieving his MD, PhD, M.A, B.A, etc? I bet you can’t find 1 other person with that kind of medical background, intelligence not to mention ability to step down from medical practices to peruse this awareness of vaccines… and quess what… “FOR NO FINANCIAL GAIN”
He simply could not deceive ppl and witness these innocent children being damaged… and you know what pal, I really don’t give a damn what YOU think of him because you are gonna be the sorry one at the end of all this that will look stupid…
Dr. Moulden = FOR HEALTH!!!
Gov/Pharma = FOR WEALTH!!!!
PERIOD!!!!!!!!
Ps, you didn’t even look at the links I provided because your response was too quick…. So really I have no respect for anyone who deliberately turns a blind eye on reality and truth. Good luck detoxifying your body of all the toxins you’ve been abusing your body with for all these years!!!! LOL
Re: Madison’s Mom,
I did go to all of the links you provided. None mentioned the 1 in 67 number; in fact one of the links used the 1 in 150 number.
I am beginning to feel that this number may be just another piece of misinformation floating around the internet. Perhaps a scare tactic?
Not that it would matter in fantasy land, but some comments on Dr. Moulden:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/10/vaccines_cause_microvascular_strokes_that_cause_autism.php
Another Voice:
the 1 in 67 number, I believe, is for boys in some specific geography using special education data.
The people pushing the epidemic idea are impatient and are jumping ahead of the actual measured numbers and are using the low reliability sources.
HCN: I don’t think this will help at all. Many people missed the warning flags that were so obvious in his website.
Thank you for the input Sullivan.
Madison’s Mom said “Take away the perception that the vaccines ever eradicated any disease because that has been disproved over and over again…” and then she posted the websites of a pair of doctors.
I’m sorry but you do not seem to understand. I wanted science, not your Facebook account, nor a random webpage from some doctor.
I want the original papers with the actual data, statistics and methods of research. I live a couple of miles from a medical school library, it would not take me much effort to actually get the papers. All you have to do is provide the journal, title, and date.
This is because all of your talking points are the same general misinformation passed
from one antivax website to another. Dr. Moulden is discussed in the link I posted before, and Dr. Wilson seems to only reference the same anti-vax that much of your statements come from (like the SIDS myth, actually, the pertussis vaccine was delayed until age two in Japan due to fear of SIDS, but then reinstated when more babies were dying of pertussis).
Which is exactly why I am not goingto your website, but I will encourage you read up on some real science. You should read more of the pages on the Autism-Hub, http://www.autism-hub.co.uk/ , especially the very good explanations on Photoninthedarkness (read his most recent essay on “let’s do a study!”).
Another good source of information is the CDC Pink Book. The following is the levels of measles from Appendix G of that document, with notations of vaccine dates. Please explain how your statement that vaccines had very little to do with the reduction of measles has any validity (and again, I really do want you to find the science yourself):
Disease: Measles in the USA
Year__Cases___Deaths
1950__319,124_468
1951__530,118_683
1952__683,077_618
1953__449,146_462
1954__682,720_518
1955__555,156_345
1956__611,936_530
1957__486,799_389
1958__763,094_552
1959__406,162_385
1960__441,703_380
1961__423,919_434
1962__481,530_408
1963__385,156_364
(^^ first vaccine licensed)
1964__458,083_421
1965__261,905_276
1966__204,136_261
1967___62,705__81
1968___22,231__24
1969___25,826__41
1970___47,351__89
1971___75,290__90
(^^^ MMR licensed)
1972___32,275__24
1973___26,690__23
1974___22,690__20
1975___24,374__20
1976___41,126__12
1977___57,245__15
1978___26,871__11
(^^^ Measles Elimination Program started)
1979___13,597___6
1980___13,506__11
1981____2,124___2
1982____1,714___4
1983____1,497___1
1984____2,587___4
1985____6,282___2
1986____3,655___2
1988____3,396___3
1989___18,193__32 (this is what happens when
1990___27,786__64 measles vaccine coverage
1991____9,643__27 is reduced)
1992____2,237___4
1993______312___0 (vaccine coverage returns)
1994______963___0
1995______309___2
1996______508___1
1997______138___2
1998______100___0
1999______100___2
2000_______86__ 1
2001______116__ 1
2002_______44__ 0
2003_______56__ 1
2004_______37__NA
2005_______66__NA
2006_______55__NA
Please, tell me what actual science (title, journal, date) supports the notion that the MMR vaccine is worse than measles.
I really don’t know why I bother with you “follow the leaders” (I couldn’t think of anything nicer to put it) But, here we go again:
As I was reading through your “scientific data” I already see that you posted inaccurate information. You are so bothered by my 1 in 67 with Autism (which I got from a CBC news interview) rather than 1 in 150 in most places, which I also stated…
and yet you can’t even get YOUR numbers straight?!?!
MEASLES USA
“288 cases reported in 1995” not 309 as you stated.
Click to access mmr_ii_pi.pdf
1986: The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act establishes a “no-fault” compensation system (why these ppl should not be accountable is beyond me) for those injured by vaccines and requires adverse health events following specific vaccinations be reported and those injured by vaccines be compensated.
Once again, tell me why there would be such an act in place when clearly vaccines don’t cause injuries?!?
1990
The Vaccine Adverse Reporting System, a national program monitoring the safety of vaccines established.
FACT: From 1990-2008, $856,353,609.26 has been awarded to vaccine injured families. (that’s over 47.6 Million dollars a year for the past 18 years in case you needed me to translate) That also works out to be over $130,000 per DAY!!! (Hmm wonder how much of our tax paying dollars are going towards that?)
Now that’s a HUGE number in itself but that does not even come close to ALL the vaccine injured families because there’s only a small % of ppl that even know about the reporting system let alone went to court & won. AND to top it off this is only in the USA. So try and think a little on your own here and really realize that if EVERY vaccine injured case was reported in Canada, US, and the UK, you’ll see just how many ARE actually injured from vaccines. Basically you are telling me that just because it’s not “reported in Literature” that’s it’s not happening or not proven? That these families are just “quacks” that know nothing about science?
HAHA sorry again I have to laugh at your ignorance and stupidity.
Lets continue shall we:
1998: First rotavirus vaccine licensed.
1999: Rotavirus vaccine withdrawn from the market as a result of adverse events.
Hmm…I’d really like to know how/how long they studied the SAFTEY of this vaccine before INJURING or KILLING those innocent people? I’d say not at all, so for a whole year ppl had to suffer from the lack of responsibility of the FDA/CDC/Pharma. Oh but at least they got paid for it… thank God right!!!
1990: FDA recommends removing mercury from all products, including vaccines. (too bad they didn’t think of this 50-60years prior, maybe not so many ppl would have been affected) Efforts have now begun to remove thimerosal, a mercury based additive, from vaccines.
Umm it’s now 10yrs later and still you get vaccines with Thimerosal in it? You would think with the multi billion dollars they make a year from administering the vaccines, they would have been able to eliminate it completely by now, No? Also, funny they CLAIM that mercury is SAFE yet they are “trying” to eliminate it… why do that, if it’s so F’n safe?
I guess because of all the reports from parents are raising concern… OH, but then again you like to say that reports from anyone other then the CDC/FDA is just garbage and NON SCIENTIFIC!!!
LOL you make yourself look really stupid!
2000: “Measles was once epidemic in the United States, with more than 55,000 cases and more than 120 deaths as recently as 1989–1991.”
(that’s a total of .2% of deaths) from Measles and this is classified as “epidemic”?
Hmm…(oh yea I forgot) you claim that I don’t care about those .2% of ppl because I am JUST stating a FACT!!! You like to see numbers, so I am showing you them! You are so blinded that you can’t even see what this is telling you… let me help you out with this ok?
This means that 54,880 out of the 55,000 people affected by the measles, had recovered and are now 100% immune to the measles and protected for life!!!! OMG what a horrible thing that is… well it is for the Government and Pharmaceutical companies because this means those people are now protected, so now they wont get their “cut” since they don’t qualify for the shots anymore! Aww poor them!
This has taken me about 20 minutes to compose and frankly you are not worth that much of my time so I will end simply by saying that Vaccines have injured more ppl now then the measles ever would if we would just let it come…and go!!!
Enough said.
Is that 1 in 67 from Gallup & Yazbak? Hilarious. You do realize they didn’t conduct a survey to come up with that, right? They estimated it based on 2 different databases using different ages of ascertainment, and extrapolating. It was an invalid calculation (not that I think autism prevalence can’t be just about anything).
Now, this thing about vaccines not working strikes me as completely crazy. If vaccines didn’t work, people would drop dead around us all the time, just like they did in the old days.
But I’ll tell you what. There’s actual data you can look at. I’ve done this. I haven’t gotten around to writing about it because I don’t think it would be that interesting to prove the obvious for the benefit of bat-shit crazies who won’t believe data anyway. Specifically, I’ve looked at data on Polio vaccination and cases from India, which is a country that doesn’t appear to have anything near herd immunity for Polio. The association is immediately obvious just looking at a graph. But I’ve detrended the series just to make sure I’m not looking at coincidence. Undeniably, the Polio vaccine prevents Polio, go figure.
Joseph, Now before you go off into your own little world here let me clarify that I’ve never even heard of the doctors you just mentioned (Gallup & Yazbak) so I do think its quite “Hilarious” that you find your own assumptions amusing! LOL
Now moving on from that nonsense:
Re; Now, this thing about vaccines not working strikes me as completely crazy. If vaccines didn’t work, people would drop dead around us all the time, just like they did in the old days”
Please man, do me a favor and don’t waste my time with this. We did not die of the diseases themselves, we died because we had less than adequate health care and VERY POOR living conditions/hygiene “back in the old days”. We were a lot less able to fight off infections like we can today. A simple answer to a simple question!
This has already been proven by the “mini epidemics” of measles “around us” these days. Take a look at the prevalence of Measles in the US, Canada and the UK in the past 15 years and you will see that only 2 people died of all that contracted the disease and that was only because they already had an underlying condition. And NO (one again) this does not mean I don’t care about those 2 kids, I am simply just stating a FACT people!!!
Re;
“There’s actual data you can look at”
“Specifically, I’ve looked at data on Polio vaccination and cases from India, which is a country that doesn’t appear to have anything near herd immunity for Polio. The association is immediately obvious just looking at a graph.”
Hmm is it obvious to you that India is a “DEVELOPING COUNTRY” you moron?
Which means (I’m getting sick of simplifying things for you people) that ppl in those countries are going to die from Polio… they are prob going to die from the chickenpox too because they live in poor conditions and have inadequate health care and prob a weakened immune system due to that fact… wait a minute this all sounds familiar… Ohhh yea I JUST SAID THIS… you ppl really need to stop looking at diseases on a worldwide scale… you are simply NOT going to get true numbers that actually affects us in DEVELOPED COUNTRIES!
For a hypothetical example: The FDA/CDC says to go get your measles vaccine because they state that 80,000 people died WORLDWIDE last year from the Measles (since this seems to be the topic of the day)
This would make the average person think OMG that’s a lot of people, I better listen to the government and get the shot. (despite the dangers of the shot itself) But then you are told that there were only 15 people in all of Canada, US, and the UK that contracted the measles in that year, which none actually resulted in death due to the fact that 99.99% of ppl in our country(s) are able to fight off the disease themselves. Would you still get the measles shot? If you do, you are more brainwashed then I originally thought because you would NOT logically need to be vaccinated if you are able to get over the measles without it and in turn be protected from it for the rest of your life (unlike the vaccine)
Now even though the #’ were an example, the message remains the same that no matter what “scientific stats” you look at you will clearly see that we are much more able to fight off diseases now adays then we were ever able to 100 years ago. Please don’t use worldwide studies as they are used solely as scare tactics… Are you really gonna tell me that you can’t see this!?!
And finally,
Re; “Undeniably, the Polio vaccine prevents Polio, go figure”
PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Showing me that Polio declined over the years does not make your statement true, sorry!
It simply states that, as we got healthier and obtained better health care and lived in far cleaner environments, polio (among all the other diseases) eradicated.
Besides, every single disease started to decline (for these simple reasons)
BEFORE VACCINES WERE INTRODUCED!
(roll of the eyes)
Madison’s Mom said “Hmm…(oh yea I forgot) you claim that I don’t care about those .2% of ppl because I am JUST stating a FACT You like to see numbers, so I am showing you them!”
I said I want to see the PAPERS! Give me the title, journal and date so I can go look them up at my local medical school library. So far you have failed several times to comply to this simple request:
What verifiable scientific evidence do you have that the MMR is worse than measles, mumps or rubella?
Just give me the title, journal, and date of the paper that shows this evidence, and then I will go down to the local medical school library and look it up. Thank you.
So if not from Gallup and Yazbak, where did you get the 1 in 67 number, Madison’s mom? I think we need a citation.
Interesting. People did not die because of diseases. They died because of bad sanitation. More crazy stuff. Don’t you think we’ve heard this before? We deal with anti-vaxers all the time. Occasionally we get one who is enough off the deep end to claim that vaccines don’t work at all.
I wonder how it is that vaccines work in the third world. Or how it’s possible to keep Polio at bay by simply having most people wash their hands.
Madison’s Mom said “You are so bothered by my 1 in 67 with Autism (which I got from a CBC news interview) rather than 1 in 150 in most places, which I also stated…”
The Canadian Broadcasting Company is not considered a good source of scientific evidence. Remember, I specified no news reports. Please provide the title, journal and date of the paper that the 1 in 67 ratio was originally reported.
Also, Madison’s Mom said ““288 cases reported in 1995” not 309 as you stated.’
I told you my numbers came from the CDC Pink Book Appendix G, what does that have to do with a Merck website? I am limited in the number of URLs I can use, but I will give it to you since you do not seem to have a clue as to what the CDC Pink Book is:
Click to access appdx-full-g.pdf
For 1995 that document also shows 906 cases of mumps, 128 cases of rubella (where one died), three cases of Congenital Rubella Syndrome, 41 cases of tetanus (with 5 deaths), 5137 cases of pertussis (with 6 deaths), six cases of polio (with one death), 311582 cases of hepatitis A (with 121 deaths), 10805 cases of hepatitis B (with 1082 deaths), 1180 cases of haemophilis influeze type B (with 12 deaths), and 120624 cases of varicella (with 115 deaths).
To make it simple for you, and to stay on topic, all I am asking is for the real scientific data that shows that the MMR (which has been used in the USA since 1971, and has never contained thimerosal nor aluminum salts) is worse that measles, mumps and rubella. Just give the title, journal, and date of the paper with the actual evidence.
Madison’s Mom said “Besides, every single disease started to decline (for these simple reasons)
BEFORE VACCINES WERE INTRODUCED!”
(roll of the eyes)”
Then why does the data on the CDC Pink Book Appendix G show otherwise. Did you not understand the table of measles incidence where I noted the introduction of the vaccine? What is your explanation for it going from around 400,000 cases per year before 1963 to under a 80,000 cases within five years of the introduction of vaccine?
What happened to common diseases like diphtheria? The “choking death” used to be very common (look up the origin of the Iditarod dog sled race). What happened to polio? What happened to smallpox? Where did they go? Why does polio only really hit communities that refuse vaccination (Kano State in Nigeria, northern India, an Amish community in Minnesota)?
If sanitation is a big factor, why did Japan have to close college campus from measles not that long ago? See:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18357755
Why did measles return to the UK after almost being eliminated? Why are Germany, Switzerland and Austria getting a resurgence of measles?
Has there been some kind of sanitation crisis in those countries?
Oh dear!
“Hmm is it obvious to you that India is a “DEVELOPING COUNTRY” you moron?”
Well she’s free enough with the insults, pity about the person. HCN, Joseph, are you sure you want to keep this up? Seems like the perfect waste of time. There has to be a glimmer of rational there to begin with. Moulden was a very big clue that there isn;t. Man, what a woo meister, that guy is classic, right up there with Hulda Clark. Thanks for the link HCN. The clincher though is the toxin gambit. I wonder if there’s any way to get across to people that there are loads more aluminium in the actual person than there are in the vaccine, so how does the body tell the difference and why aren’t we dead already? Worried about formaldehyde, well for heaven’s sake don’t eat that orange – thousands of times more formaldehyde than the trace in vaccines. How do people get so delusional about the actual world we live in?
On the issue of formaldehyde and oranges, etc., I have some questions. I’m guessing you’re the right people to ask, since you’ve made a serious study of all the vaccine-related research – much of which is not available, except in abstract form, to folks who don’t have journal subscriptions.
And (perhaps not surprisingly), most mainstream researchers, when asked about these issues, either shrug and say they don’t know – or respond with something along the lines of “these people will believe anything.” Not especially helpful.
Here goes:
I suspect that a lot of antivax people are concerned because they feel that “mainlining” formaldehyde, aluminum or mercury is very different from eating it in an orange, etc. Of course, it IS very different – and there are many things which are perfectly safe if breathed or eaten or touched that are NOT perfectly safe if injected (air, for example LOL).
Another concern, I believe, is that vaccines are given to infants and toddler – and, in fact, their immune systems are not fully matured.
So here are two questions: so far as you guys are aware, is there research on the relative safety of aluminum, mercury, and formaldehyde when they are INJECTED versus eaten, breathed, or touched?
Is there any research out there looking at the relative potential for reaction to vaccines for older children versus infants? (of course, I understand that most of the diseases from which vaccines are protecting kids are most likely to hit infants and toddler – but I’d love to know more about this issue anyway!).
Oh – and while I’m asking – so far, I’ve been unable to find meaningful research that shows that there’s any good reason to “break up” the MMR. Yet many, many parents seem to feel it’s a good idea (mostly because it’s proposed by a number of DAN! docs). But… why??
Lisa Jo
Madison’s Mom states “Showing me that Polio declined over the years does not make your statement true, sorry!
It simply states that, as we got healthier and obtained better health care and lived in far cleaner environments, polio (among all the other diseases) eradicated.”
Someone is then supposed to believe that the level of health care and the new level of cleanliness attained in 1955 was sufficient to begin eradication of Polio. However, it didn’t do it for Measles, no, that had to wait until 1971 for another break through in cleanliness. Wow!
These illogical statements do preclude discussion of so many more important issues.
Madison’s Mom: Although you’ve consumed a lot of attention, I’ll answer one of your questions (if it hasn’t been answered already).
The reason why there is a no-fault compensation scheme (in large measure pioneered by Rep Henry Waxman, Dem, CA) is because so many bogus lawsuits were being brought against drug companies – backed by Geier, Kinsbourne et $$ al – that the industry said they would simply stop making vaccines altogether.
Thus, the government was faced with the prospects of massive disease outbreaks (and indeed there were such outbreaks in the 1980s), or develop a system which took vaccine safety largely out of the courts.
The existence of a compensation scheme is not evidence of causation, or an admission of problems. On the contrary.
Moreover, your argument is one of the reasons why single vaccines for M, M and R are not widely available. Were they to be made available, people like you (or rather the operators of the cranksites where you appear to get your information) would be telling us that MMR must be dangerous, or the government wouldn’t be providing an alternative.
I sympathise with your lack of knowledge of this topic. Vaccine safety is extremely complex and interdisciplinary, and possibly it would be unreasonable to expect you to have truly got hold of the right end of the stick.
If you need further information, you would do best to go to the CDC’s site. You may find it curious that, despite all the abuse this agency receives from the cranksites, and the existence of a very powerful whistleblower statute, no CDC staffer, or consultant, has ever alleged serious misconduct in the vaccine programme, or brought forward any information to suggest wrongdoing.
To elaborate on Polio, it’s not only possible to show a decline of cases coinciding with an increase in vaccine uptake. It’s possible to do way more than this. I’m a stickler for avoiding global warming vs. pirates associations. I wouldn’t have mentioned it if it were simply that.
But what I find fascinating about Madison’s Mom’s views is the notion that Polio can be kept at bay by simply having good sanitation, but somehow sanitation is just not enough when it comes to the common cold, the Flu, and countless others communicable diseases that we get from time to time. Polio, that’s easy! I guess we needn’t worry about terrorist attacks involving diseases like Smallpox. You just need to wash your hands carefully enough!
Ringside Seat,
You’ve twisted the argument by claiming it was about the existence of a compensation scheme. MadisonsMom was using amount of actual compensation being awarded based on scientific assessments to illustrate a fraction of the damage being caused.
That is quite different.
At the end of the day this is the only arc we have. I am sure when your children are impacted by the poison we are dumping into the environment you will thank us for blowing the whistle. Come on Madison’s Mom do not beat your head against a wall here. They do not play fair and could care less about our children.
Re; “Come on Madison’s Mom do not beat your head against a wall here. They do not play fair and could care less about our children.”
Ahh finally, I was starting to wonder why I was the only one here to voice the truth…
Now I realize its because all the SANE, independant, educated people couldn’t be bothered and left…
Well good luck with you CULT OF MASS DECEPTION!!!
Oh yes, by all means depart. Those people don’t play fair; some of them challenge the numbers we make up. That isn’t fair! And that insistence on the use of logic; why, why, why should that apply to us?
That is neither true, nor relevant. At one time people thought the earth was flat. That was the only arc they had. Did that make them right?
I assure you that when any child is made autistic by a vaccine I’ll be the first to thank you. Until that day….
Actually, we play extremely fair. We do not:
a) Make up figures out of whole cloth
b) Refuse to provide a cite for them
c) Link to videos made by idiots
d) Refuse to back up anything we say
Whereas Madisons Mom has done all these things.
Here’s one last departing fact or two for you both.
Vaccines do not cause autism. There is absolutely no science to indicate they do. No vaccine, vaccine ingredient or vaccine schedule causes autism. To insist – despite all evidence to the contrary – that they do indicates a level of blindness to reality that is worrying for those in your care.