BMJ, Brian Deer file anti-SLAPP motion against Andrew Wakefield

11 Mar

About 2 months ago Andrew Wakefield filed a defamation lawsuit against the British Medical Journal, Brian Deer and Fiona Godlee for the series of three articles “The Secrets of the MMR Scare” and public comments made since. In particular, Mr. Wakefield took issue with statements about his research being fraudulent (and variations on that term like “fraudster”, “bullshit” etc.). Mr. Wakefield claimed that the facts presented by the BMJ articles were incorrect and based on information not available to him at the time he wrote his Lancet article.

Mr. Wakefield chose to file his defamation suit in Texas (his home state). This presented him immediately with two hurdles. First he has to show that the court has jurisdiction over primarily UK entities. Second he faced the possibility of an anti-SLAPP motion. SLAPP stands for “Strategic lawsuit against public participation“. Per Wikipedia:

A strategic lawsuit against public participation (SLAPP) is a lawsuit that is intended to censor, intimidate, and silence critics by burdening them with the cost of a legal defense until they abandon their criticism or opposition.

The typical SLAPP plaintiff does not normally expect to win the lawsuit. The plaintiff’s goals are accomplished if the defendant succumbs to fear, intimidation, mounting legal costs or simple exhaustion and abandons the criticism. A SLAPP may also intimidate others from participating in the debate. A SLAPP is often preceded by a legal threat. The difficulty, of course, is that plaintiffs do not present themselves to the Court admitting that their intent is to censor, intimidate or silence their critics. Hence, the difficulty in drafting SLAPP legislation, and in applying it, is to craft an approach which affords an early termination to invalid abusive suits, without denying a legitimate day in court to valid good faith claims.

Many states in the U.S. have enacted anti-SLAPP legislation. Texas enacted a law fairly recently and this motion could be the first major test of that law. I say “could” because of the first hurdle: jurisdiction. As Popehat has already noted, the plaintiffs in the anti-SLAPP motion “specially appear”. I.e. they keep the right to fight on jurisdictional grounds.

The motion and Mr. Deer’s supporting declaration can be found on Mr. Deer’s website. Mr. Deer’s declaration goes through the full history of his involvement with Mr. Wakefield’s research.

As Popehat notes, the motion appears quite strong. As is the case with legal motions, it covers multiple arguments. For example, they not only argue that the statements on their own are permissible speech, but they argue that the statements themselves are accurate.

Here is a section of the table-of-contents for the motion:

V. TEXAS’S NEW ANTI-SLAPP STATUTE APPLIES TO DR. WAKEFIELD’S CLAIMS.

VI. DR. WAKEFIELD’S CLAIMS FAIL BECAUSE HE CANNOT SHOW THAT THE CHALLENGED STATEMENTS ARE FALSE

A. Dr. Wakefield Must Prove that Defendants’ Statements Are Not Substantially True.
B. Dr. Wakefield Is Precluded from Re-litigating the GMC’s Findings, Which Establish the Substantial Truth of the Challenged Statements.
C. The Undisputed Evidence Also Establishes the Substantial Truth of the Challenged Statements.

1. Dr. Wakefield’s Misreporting and Falsification Permeated His Research.

2. Dr. Wakefield’s Undisclosed Conflicts of Interest.
3. Dr. Wakefield’s Review of the GP Records

VII DEFENDANTS’ STATEMENTS OF OPINION AND RHETORICAL HYPERBOLE ARE NOT ACTIONABLE.
A. Several of Defendants’ Statements, Including that Dr. Wakefield’s Research Must Have Been “Fraud,” Are Nonactionable Expressions of Opinion.
B. Defendants’ Expressions of Rhetorical Hyperbole and Colorful Language Are Not Actionable.

VIII DR. WAKEFIELD’S CLAIMS BASED ON BRIAN DEER’S WEBSITE PUBLICATIONS ARE BARRED BY THE STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS.
DR. WAKEFIELD IS A PUBLIC FIGURE, AND HE CANNOT SHOW ACTUAL MALICE.
A. Dr. Wakefield Is a Public Figure.
1. The “MMR Scare” Is a Public Controversy.
2. Dr. Wakefield Had More than a Trivial or Tangential Role in the
Scare.
3. Dr. Wakefield’s Claims Are Germane to His Participation in the
Controversy.
B. Defendants Did Not Act with Actual Malice.

1. Actual Malice Is an Exceedingly Difficult Standard to Satisfy.
2. The Evidence Here Precludes a Finding of Actual Malice.

Mr. Wakefield faces a number of burdens to overcome this motion. He must show that the statements made were more damaging that the truth. He must show that the statements are false–not just minor wording differences but that the “gist” of the truth is missing from the statements made. He must show that either he is not a public figure (very difficult for a doctor who has had a publicist for at least 10 years and has certainly put himself into the public sphere). He must show that Brian Deer, Fiona Godlee and the BMJ acted with actual malice.

He must present substantive evidence for each of these before he can go to trial. If he fails, he faces not only payment of reasonable legal fees and costs, but also the possibility of a penalty to deter future frivolous lawsuits. In that regard, the motion puts forth the history of Mr. Wakefield’s previous legal threats and lawsuits.

The most famous instance of Mr. Wakefield’s litigious history is his lawsuit against Brian Deer in 2004. Justice Eady made very clear statements on that:

[Dr. Wakefield] wished to use the existence of libel proceedings for public relations purposes, and to deter critics, while at the same time isolating himself from the ‘downside’ of such litigation, in having to answer a substantial defence of justification.

To put this in perspective–such a statement by the judge in Texas would almost certainly be followed by not only a dismissal of the case, but a financial judgement in favor of Mr. Deer, Ms. Godlee and the BMJ.

The motion makes it clear that Mr. Wakefield has faced negative commentary on his work and his character from many quarters in the past few years. From their introduction:

Two months ago, Dr. Andrew Wakefield was named by Time magazine as one of the “Great Science Frauds” of modern history. Last April, the New York Times described him as “one of the most reviled doctors of his generation.” In 2009, a Special Master presiding over vaccine litigation in the United States Court of Federal Claims recognized that Wakefield’s 1998 paper in The Lancet medical journal, which suggested a possible link between the lifesaving Measles, Mumps, and Rubella (“MMR”) vaccine and the development of autism in children, was considered a “scientific fraud.”

The Lancet has now fully retracted Wakefield’s paper, and its editor has state publicly that the paper was “utterly false” and that Wakefield “deceived the journal.” Wakefield’s home country’s medical board, the United Kingdom’s General Medical Council (“GMC”), convicted him in 2010 of multiple charges of “serious professional misconduct,” including “dishonesty” and “unethical conduct.” It further held that his misconduct had been so severe and extensive that the only punishment that would adequately protect the public from him was the permanent revocation of his medical license. As the New York Daily News put it, “Hippocrates would puke.”

As to specific instances of calling Mr. Wakefield’s work fraudulent, they quote multiple instances of the term being used. As noted above, one of the Special Masters in the Omnibus Autism Proceeding (vaccine court) called the work “scientific fraud”. Probably the most damaging instance for Mr. Wakefield are quotes from his own attorney in the General Medical Council (GMC) hearings who stated that some of the charges, if found proved, would amount to charges of fraud. Those charges were found proved.

There is definitely a movement amongst Mr. Wakefield’s supporters to recast his defamation suit as a retrial of not only his Fitness to Practice hearing before the GMC, but as a legal test of the validity of his MMR/autism hypothesis. Even just within the past couple of days Jenny McCarthy re-emerged in her role as a vocal Wakefield supporter with this (and other) erroneous arguments.

Courts are well aware of attempts for people to use defamation cases as a proxy for fighting other arguments. For example, readers might recall a recent defamation case where Barbara Loe Fisher (of the self-named National Vaccine Information Center) sued Dr. Paul Offit, writer Amy Wallace and Conde Nast publications for two words in an article: “she lies”. In the decision dismissing the defamation suit the judge noted:

Not only does Plaintiff’s claim of the statement’s falsity invite an open ended inquiry into Plaintiff’s veracity, it also threatens to ensnare the Court in the thorny and extremely contentious debate over the perceived risks of certain vaccines….and, at the bottom, which side has the truth on its side. This is hardly the sort of issue which would be subject to verification based on a core of “objective evidence”

and

Courts have a justifiable reticence about venturing into a thicket of scientific debate, especially in the defamation context

However, one must note that Mr. Wakefield’s defamation suit does *not* involve the issues of his research conclusions/findings (or non-findings as they have been retracted from the public sphere). The question put forth by Mr. Wakefield was whether statements such as “fraud”, “fraudster”, “determined cheat” are actionable defamation and whether these are based on allegedly misrepresented details from the research–such as diagnoses of the children and when symptoms appeared. Mr. Deer shows in his declaration that the facts presented in the BMJ studies are accurate.

On the “weight of evidence” front, consider this: Mr. Wakefield submitted a 17 page defamation claim. The defendants have responded with a 53 page anti-SLAPP motion and 5 declarations. The declarations include one from Mr. Deer with 101 pages and 104 exhibits. Where Mr. Wakefield is using a neighbor as his attorney, one who is not a specialist in health, media or defamation cases, the BMJ team are using a top Texas law firm and a total of seven attorneys. The lead attorney is listed as having experience with healthcare and publishers:

Tom has a wide range of experience in state and federal appeals and trials. His experience includes commercial, intellectual property, and healthcare litigation, and class actions. He has represented publishers and broadcasters in all aspects of media litigation throughout his career.

the second attorney listed has direct experience on defamation:

Marc’s practice focuses on media and privacy law, class actions, and general commercial litigation. His media law experience includes representing publishers in litigation involving claims for defamation, invasion of privacy, misappropriation, copyright, and related causes of action. In addition, he has defended companies in consumer class actions across the country relating to advertising and digital privacy. He regularly provides advice regarding website terms of service, arbitration agreements, and privacy law.

According to the BMJ’s motion, ” To avoid dismissal, the plaintiff [Mr. Wakefield] must submit “clear and specific evidence” to support each essential element of his claims.”

I suspect that Mr. Wakefield will have a meeting with his attorney very soon to discuss strategy. They are outclassed on the facts of the case, on the manpower and expertise of the attorneys and the credibility of the witnesses. They will discuss “each essential element of his claims” and how they stack up against the evidence presented. One might suspect that Mr. Wakefield’s attorney was unaware of how shaky their position was at the start, getting his facts from Mr. Wakefield. They now know, through hundreds of pages of arguments and evidence, how the defense can answer the “essential claims”.

If they can dismiss before the jurisdiction question is addressed and avoid the anti-SLAPP motion, they might be well advised to do so. The “reasonable costs” the BMJ are incurring are sure to be sizable. And the litigious history of Mr. Wakefield will surely play into a determination of whether to impose penalties on top of those.

From where I sit, Mr. Wakefield just doesn’t have the facts on his side. Nor does he have the law on his side. The jurisdiction question may be a blessing in disguise for Mr. Wakefield: giving him the opportunity to bow out before the anti-SLAPP motion goes into effect.

179 Responses to “BMJ, Brian Deer file anti-SLAPP motion against Andrew Wakefield”

  1. Matthew cline March 17, 2012 at 03:52 #

    Vaccine damage manifests itself in many ways , as you well know . Mercury and Aluminium and the other poisons disrupt every one of the body’s enzymes – enzymes are the drivers of all the body’s functions , so there is absolutely no need to confine ourselves to the neurological damage you call autism

    If that were the case then Minamata disease (severe mercury poisoning) wouldn’t have a narrow set of symptoms.

  2. Krebiozen March 18, 2012 at 00:32 #

    Sorry it’s OT, but regarding Zeda Pingel, I also looked on the VAERS database and found only one report that fits her case. She clearly suffered viral encephalitis, followed by septic shock, renal failure, respiratory collapse and was clearly very unwell, and has suffered permanent damage. The final diagnosis was “recent viral encephalitis(presumed HSV)”.

    I don’t seen how Gardasil, which contains only proteins made by genetically modified yeast possibly cause viral encephalitis at all, much less 3 weeks after vaccination. It seems very unlikely indeed that this unfortunate case has anything at all to do with Gardasil. If anything this shows how devastating viral infections can be on occasion, and why vaccination is so important.

  3. Simpson Wood March 18, 2012 at 11:06 #

    Will “no brains , still no brains” please answer Mr Higgins request .
    Can we see the pictures uploaded on the front page on your website (poor Zeda Pingel)?

    Krebiozen ….VAERS says up to 25,000 vaccine injured from Gardasil …is this true ?
    and up to 200 young girls killed outright ? is this true ?
    Or is all this due to this virulent mystery infection you mention ?

    Is this website a comedy website ? Sure looks like it .

  4. Re Simpson clown March 18, 2012 at 12:00 #

    ‘VAERS says up to 25,000 vaccine injured from Gardasil …is this true ?’

    No it is not true. VAERS does not say that.

    ‘and up to 200 young girls killed outright ? is this true ?’

    No it is not true. VAERS does not say that.

  5. TLPG March 18, 2012 at 12:33 #

    I don’t think this has been addressed in the comments, so I’ll throw in my two cents on firstly the question of jurisdiction. I know a bit about this because of my current defamation suit against a certain JBJ from NH. For Wakefield to claim to have been defamed in Texas, he would have to prove that he first saw the publication of the material he is claiming is defamatory in said state. That is damage (I’m speaking from his point of view and not reflecting on the claim myself in those terms) using Gutnick v Dow Jones here in Australia as a world wide precedent on publication – extending from a Supreme Court of California decision in Calder v Jones which placed newspaper publication at it’s distribution point and not it’s creation point. The question I have is “Was Wakefield in Texas when he first saw the material written by Brian Deer?” If he did, then he can win the jurisdiction question.

    Of course, with the anti-SLAPP motion in place the question might not even arise. There is no doubt in anyone’s mind that Deer calling Wakefield a fraud was not just a verfiable opinion on his part – science clearly indicates that what he said was right in practical fact. That’s how Wakefield’s lawsuit will fail.

    Also I’ll just mention that being called a fraud IS actionable under defamation – provided that the said fraud results in some sort of major advantage, whether it be financial gain (which is the most common ground) or a gain of another sort. In Wakefield’s case, the gain was undermining the veracity of the MMR vaccine. Wakefield abviously still believes that the MMR vaccine is dangerous and that’s why he’s crying libel over the “fraud” accusation.

    I know in a few sentences I’ve stated the obvious here, but it does me a power of good just saying it!

    • Sullivan March 18, 2012 at 14:30 #

      “The question I have is “Was Wakefield in Texas when he first saw the material written by Brian Deer?””

      As I recall, Mr. Wakefield was in Jamaica. He was attending a small private conference on “vaccine safety”.

  6. Julian Frost March 18, 2012 at 15:15 #

    @Simpson Wood:

    .VAERS says up to 25,000 vaccine injured from Gardasil …is this true ?
    and up to 200 young girls killed outright ? is this true ?

    No, and no. The database collects negative events that follow vaccination. That does not mean that the negative event was caused by the vaccination, only that it occurred within a certain time. Also, very little checking is done. There was a case where one blogger, to show how weak the controls were, filled out a report that vaccines had turned his daughter into the Incredible Hulk. Had he not then given permission to have it removed, it would still be there.

  7. Krebiozen March 18, 2012 at 16:39 #

    Simpson Wood,

    Can we see the pictures uploaded on the front page on your website (poor Zeda Pingel)?

    Why would you want this blog to host pictures of a girl who does not have autism, and was unfortunately injured by a viral infection that I don’t believe could possibly have had anything to do with vaccines?

    Krebiozen ….VAERS says up to 25,000 vaccine injured from Gardasil …is this true ?

    Why don’t you go to the VAERS website and search for yourself. It lets you search by vaccine type, and all sorts of other parameters. It’s a shame it’s such a useless source of information, for the reasons other have mentioned. Post marketing surveillance and the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) Project are much better sources of information on vaccine safety.

    Anyway, if you just search for all reported adverse events for Gardasil you will find 23,256. However, a quick skim through them reveals that they include things like a sore arm that lasted for 2 minutes, fainting, anxiety attacks, suicides and “reactions” that occurred months later. Over 1,000 of these reactions occurred more than 2 months after vaccination. How do you determine that an illness is due to a vaccine received 2 month earlier?

    and up to 200 young girls killed outright ?

    There are 105 reports of deaths after Gardasil. These include a girl who fell into an open well 7 weeks after being given Gardasil. The report concludes: “The medical officer in-charge investigated the death and completed first information report and determined that death was not related to the vaccine.” Yet it is still listed under deaths associated with Gardasil. The data in VAERS are clearly not at all reliable as a means of assessing whether Gardasil has dangerous side effects, not the way you are using it anyway.

    is this true ?

    If by “killed outright” you mean those who dropped dead immediately after being vaccinated, then no it’s not true. There are no reports of deaths within 1 day of vaccination with Gardasil. There are 5 reports of deaths within 2 days:

    1. A 22-year-old heroin addict on methadone who appears to have OD’edthe day after being vaccinated. “The reporter stated that Gardasil did not cause the patient”s death.”

    2. A 17-year-old with a cardiac arrhythmia believed to have been long-term suffered a sudden unattended death.

    3. A 42-year-old woman who was unwell when vaccinated and subsequently reported abdominal pain and bleeding who then died of unknown causes. “The reporter felt that abdominal pain, bleeding and death were not related to therapy with GARDASIL. No further information is available.”

    4. An obese 15-year-old with enlarged heart and spleen and asthma previous to vaccination collapsed and died of “arrhythmia due to cardiomyopathy”.

    5. An 18-year-old with chronic depression who came off antidepressant medication when she reached 18 and committed suicide by hanging.

    Do you see a pattern emerging here? I do, it’s that there appears to be no plausible connection between any of these deaths and Gardasil. I have gone through a number of VAERS reported deaths associated with Gardasil before, and found the same thing: unfortunate deaths due to accidents, suicides and underlying chronic illnesses that had sometimes not been detected, the sort of causes of death you expect to see in teenagers and young adults. Young people do sometimes get ill and die, for reasons completely unconnected with vaccines. If I had found that lots of people had unusual symptoms or an unusual cause of death I would be suspicious, but that’s not the case.

    Or is all this due to this virulent mystery infection you mention ?

    Herpes simplex encephalitis, which appears to have killed Zeda Pingel, is not a mystery infection. How do you suggest a vaccine that does not contain any viruses and is not even made out of dead viruses could possibly cause herpes simplex encephalitis, or any other kind of viral encephalitis?

    Viral infections are occasionally fatal especially if they spread to the brain. As I wrote before, it’s a very good argument for vaccinating against those viruses we have effective vaccines for.

  8. Chris March 18, 2012 at 17:26 #

    Mr. Simpson:

    .VAERS says up to 25,000 vaccine injured from Gardasil …is this true ?

    You can look for yourself, the database is accessible at http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index . Except before you enter you must do something: “Please read the following statement on the limits of VAERS data. You MUST click on the box below to access the VAERS database.”

    Now, Mr. Simpson, what must you read and understand before clicking on the box to use the VAERS database?

  9. Chris March 18, 2012 at 17:27 #

    Mr. Wood (sorry about the previous error), here another explanation on VAERS:
    http://thepoxesblog.blogspot.com/2012/02/vaers-as-evidence-of-vaccine-harm.html

  10. Simpson Wood March 18, 2012 at 20:43 #

    Is it also true Maurice Hilleman (who some call the godfather of modern vaccines – I understand 7 or 8 of the current vaccine schedule are vaccines of his creation) described vaccines as the bargain basement of healthcare ? That they were full of contaminants (including foreign RNA & DNA) and that there was no way to prevent this ?

    I suppose in Left Foot , Right Foot eyes , bargain basement stands for quality and unrivalled reliability ?

    My understanding was that only doctors write to the Vaers db . There are definitely way more deaths than being admitted .
    Plus I dont mind the inclusion of the incredible hulk quip at all
    because after all that was another medical experiment that went wrong (joking of course before you boys latch onto it).

    How is it some lucky parents are recording cures if its a genetic condition ?
    I suppose they imagined the whole thing .

    We could go on but you clowns (your term) just need to make sure all your vaccines and that of ALL your families are kept fully up to date …please ….you’ll know soon enough !

  11. joe March 18, 2012 at 20:51 #

    I found it unbelievable, that you love vaccines that much on this
    site. That is until it was revealed, that’s how some of you vermin make a living defending the Pharma Co’s. I have just read, that the skeptics involved in attacking the parents on these articles. Their leader is a wicked person, to say the least. There is even
    a picture at the provided link i’m giving of BMJ’s Fiona Godlee addressing a skeptic meeting? It all makes since now! wait till you read how morally sick these scum buckets are. One is a professional witness used against children, that have been molested. That now! makes perfect since,if you have no respect
    for children. You would not give a damn, if someone is poisoning raping or even killing them.

    The question on everybody’s mind, should be. Why on earth is the editor of the BMJ addressing a skeptic meeting? I thought that Journals,are suppose to be non bias? Hard to do, when you have heavily invested a lot of your own money in a Company. That if
    it all comes out that the product destroyed children. You stand,
    to lose all your money.

    How can any of you believe in God,you can’t! that’s how you justify, doing what you do. There is no God,so in that case
    there is no judgement.

    Hitler has been in hell,ever since he died. The Bible says it’s appointed every man a time to die, and after that the judgement.

    You can claim, I just believe in vaccines. That’s why, I defend them. The God I serve, knows every thought that ever entered
    your mind. Every hair on your head is numbered, every star has
    a number and a name. And someday soon that same God is going to roll the heavens up like a scroll. Come back and give to every man what he deserves for his acts in the flesh that is unless you know Jesus. That includes all people who have attacked parents, calling them liers. Parents that are already dealing, with hell on earth. You have intensified and prolonged, their suffering and God almighty knows it. The judgement you will get, given freely to you will be true justice for all of eternity.

    Just recently, a mother shot her very severe son with Autism not!
    aspergers to death. And then turned the gun on herself, killing herself. To all that has done or defended this atrocity,her and her child’s blood are on your hands.

    May God, have mercy on your souls.

    All this Evil you do, is just to make a check. You will have all of eternity, to think of what you have done to innocent children and their parents.

    The Bible says, that the love of money is the root of all Evil.

  12. Chris March 18, 2012 at 21:11 #

    Mr. Wood:

    Is it also true Maurice Hilleman (who some call the godfather of modern vaccines – I understand 7 or 8 of the current vaccine schedule are vaccines of his creation) described vaccines as the bargain basement of healthcare ?

    Citation needed. Actually that could also mean that vaccines are low cost ways to prevent diseases. Diseases that are costly to treat.

    By the way, anyone can file a VAERS report. Kev used it to report a vaccine turned his daughter into Wonder Woman. You’d know that if you clicked on the link I gave and answered my question: What do you have to read and understand before entering the VAERS database?

    joe:

    The God I serve, knows every thought that ever entered your mind.

    I believe that we have established earlier on this thread that your god is pure evil. Apparently it is the one that wants kids to be born with Congenital Rubella Syndrome (which the Vatican of the Roman Catholic Church does not want), and to suffer through several illnesses that are prevented through vaccines.

    I suggest you don’t lecture us on mercy, since you have none for the tens of thousands of victims from CRS during the rubella pandemic in the early 1960s, nor of the hundreds of children who died from measles each year before the first vaccine in 1963, nor the thousands of kids who became deaf from mumps (which used to be the most common reason for post-lingual deafness).

    Instead of arguing from the supernatural, use real data. Explain to us exactly how the MMR vaccine, which was introduced in the USA in 1971, causes more harm than measles, mumps and rubella. Do not invoke any gods (especially that evil one you follow), but just post the title, journal and date of the papers that support your statements.

  13. Thomas March 18, 2012 at 21:27 #

    Joe: Thank you for providing another good example of the clear thinking and compassion that anti-vaccine advocates are known for. Your attack on the parents of autistic children who blog here is both laughably incoherent and deeply dishonest. Congratulations. Your guardians or caretakers must be very proud.

  14. McD March 18, 2012 at 21:44 #

    Simpson Wood, you wrote “How is it some lucky parents are recording cures if its a genetic condition ?”

    That is a bit of a nonsense statement. Are you saying that nothing can be done to improve symptoms for genetic conditions?

    I am firmly of the view that autism is primarily genetic. That didn’t stop me from getting evidence-based behaviour therapy for my severely affected child.

    6 year later he is in a mainstream school, can talk (he can produce his own novel sentences relevant to the situation at hand), and is academically in the top half of his class for all subjects. He needs a teacher’s aide to keep him on-task, as he cares little for social reinforcement and would just wander off and read Thomas books without an aide. He is a gentle and loving child – when we go anywhere now (I would not leave the house at all in the early days) he is frequently greeted by his school-mates, he has more friends than I do.

    It took a lot of work to get him there, and he is very proud of his accomplishments. He will always be autistic, but he will have the skills to enjoy life on his terms, and can now learn by observing his environment. We have a long way to go, but he is on track for independence.

    Had we wasted time, effort and money chasing a nonsense cure based on a nonsense hypothesis, we would not have had the resources for the 20-odd hours of behaviour therapy that our child needed to learn how to learn. He would probably still be poking his finger into his eyes for stimulation – or have progressed down the path of frustration and aggression.

  15. McD March 18, 2012 at 22:02 #

    “Big Nutra” are exploiting the parents of autistic children a hell of a lot more than “Big Pharma”.

    Not that I care for Big Pharma at all. They are laughing out the other side of their heads every time cries off conventional meds for “natural”. They all own nutraceutical subsidiary companies. Some of which will be contracting out to produce the labels being flogged off to Autism parents.

    Cripes, one of Sanofi-Aventis’ many nutraceutical subsidiary companies produces homeopathic products (check it out on the Sanofi Aventis website – google the names of their subsidiaries, there are too many for me to go through and list here). You can spend quite an eye-opening afternoon browsing through the websites of both Big Pharma and Big Nutra. It’s not black and white. They are both selling stuff and both spinning nonsense to do so.

    Start surfing here: http://www.nutraceuticalmag.com/

    Note they produce a sister publication – “Pharma”

    Autism parents are just a market demographic to be exploited. Open your eyes.

    Wakefield, AoA, Generation Rescue and the like are Big Nutra Shills.

    Sadly at least one major behaviour therapy provider has joined hands with the bio-med crowd, possibly because they would have lost clients by making a stand. They got called out for the ethics breach (and some others) at the last ABAI conference. Luckily for parents, the academic BAs have been rebelling against the commercialism: http://www.rethinkautism.com/parents/intro.aspx

  16. TLPG March 18, 2012 at 22:17 #

    As I recall, Mr. Wakefield was in Jamaica. He was attending a small private conference on “vaccine safety

    Thanks, Sullivan. FWIW, that means the jurisdiction question will fail. I assume that Wakefield is claiming damage in Texas through other people. There’s no precedent for that.

    If it gets that far of course.

    We could go on but you clowns (your term) just need to make sure all your vaccines and that of ALL your families are kept fully up to date …please ….you’ll know soon enough !

    We already know, Mr Wood. Most of the western world is up to date. If what you were saying was true, they would all be vaccine injured. But they are not. I don’t know how many have suffered a genuine vaccine injury, but I know it’s not 1 in 150. At a ball park guess it would be about 1 in 10,000 – and not always because of the vaccine itself either.

    As others have observed, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    (I hope I got the blockquote code right!)

  17. Irony March 18, 2012 at 22:22 #

    “Had we wasted time, effort and money chasing a nonsense cure based on a nonsense hypothesis, we would not have had the resources for the 20-odd hours of behaviour therapy that our child needed to learn how to learn. He would probably still be poking his finger into his eyes for stimulation – or have progressed down the path of frustration and aggression.”

    Yes, but compared to the joy and fulfillment you could have gotten from fantasizing that you were on the track of a world-wide conspiracy that would stop at nothing to defeat you, merely helping your child succeed is hardly a victory.

  18. Chris March 18, 2012 at 22:26 #

    Thomas:

    Your attack on the parents of autistic children who blog here is both laughably incoherent and deeply dishonest.

    As a parent of a child injured by a now vaccine preventable disease, I find his behavior reprehensible.

    McD:

    That didn’t stop me from getting evidence-based behaviour therapy for my severely affected child.

    Same here. Our son went through several years of speech/language therapy, along with special education programs from preschool all the way through community college.

    There are no miracles, but one has to be wary of all of the stuff that folks want to sell parents of disabled children. When I was on a listserv for his disability we had people sign on to try and sell us magic soap, special head massages, chelation tablets, fish oil, and on and on. It was ridiculous.

  19. Krebiozen March 19, 2012 at 00:30 #

    Joe,
    I suspect you are beyond reach, but anyway.

    You can claim, I just believe in vaccines. That’s why, I defend them. The God I serve, knows every thought that ever entered your mind.

    If that’s true then the God you serve knows that I don’t “just believe” in vaccines. Over the past few years I have read dozens, maybe hundreds, of scientific papers and articles about vaccine safety, and the only rational conclusion I can come to is that modern vaccines are remarkably safe and effective. That is my honest opinion. No one has paid me to give that opinion and I don’t work for a drug company.

    We do know for sure that vaccines are far safer than traveling by car which kills up to 1,000 children a year in the US, and safer than many other everyday activities, like eating food, which causes 200 deaths a year through anaphylactic shock, and even more through choking.

    Do you accuse people who take their children in cars (or allow them to drive) or who give them food of being evil?

  20. joe March 19, 2012 at 03:45 #

    It is absolutely impossible for the amount of mercury that was injected in children that by an NIH study revealed it crosses
    the BBB and the placental easier that the fish mercury to not
    have damaged children.

    If a few drops of mercury can contaminate a whole lake and here is reference to that fact from a Franklin county website.

    It states,a few drops of mercury and a 20 acre lake is contaminated.

  21. Chris March 19, 2012 at 04:46 #

    joe, what does mercury have to do with the MMR vaccine?

  22. Julian Frost March 19, 2012 at 06:15 #

    @Simpson Wood:

    My understanding was that only doctors write to the Vaers db

    Your understanding is incorrect. Anyone may submit a report to VAERS.

    There are definitely way more deaths than being admitted.

    Given that a lot on investigations turned up deaths unrelated to Gardasil, Citation needed.

  23. joe March 19, 2012 at 07:17 #

    Chris I believe it’s not just mercury it’s all including the GSK
    and MERCK version of the MMR. You cannot,bombard an infants immune sys. with heavy metals and toxins and do no damage. Those at the CDC knew that, because they were told that the Mitochondria problems are not! as it was reported by the CDC Dir. as a rare disorder. In fact, it may very well be that 1 in 50 people have the nuclear DNA for Mitochondria damage. Those at that meeting, agreed it was their consensus that something was over stressing the immune system and causing the damage we are seeing in Autism. They, the six teams of the Mitochondria specialist had also agreed that vaccines were and are indeed an immune stressor definition of a stressor is that Secretion of glucocorticoids is enhanced during stress. The teams found that the vaccines were pushing the immune system beyond it’s metabolic reserves. The result of this insult, could be Autistic symptoms.

    In fact one of the researchers on the call said,when explaining that Mitochondria dysfunction / disorder was not rare at all it could be 1 in 50 he then said ” “The potential implications for autism, then, are staggering”

    These researchers, then warned the CDC that they had better act on this. Or, they would turn over their findings to the public.

    Needless to say, another warning was ignored and I assume those in attendance were then threatened. That’s usually, the way that they roll at the CDC.

    There is only one immune stressor that all children have in common
    at that young of an age. Vaccines that’s it!

    They, don’t breath the same air.

    They, don’t eat the same foods.

    They don’t drink the same water.

    But they do get the same amount, of heavy metals and toxins that is present in all children’s vaccines. That those mitochondria
    experts said maybe the stressor causing the Mitochondria problems to turn into Autism.

    • Sullivan March 19, 2012 at 13:29 #

      “But they do get the same amount, of heavy metals and toxins that is present in all children’s vaccines.”

      They don’t. That is not true for kids born in any given year (see Price et al. for thimerosal exposure and autism risk) and it certainly isn’t true for kids born in different years. Kids born today, kids born this past decade, don’t have the same exposure to mercury from vaccines as kids born the previous decade (1990’s). Autism rates have not gone down. David Kirby and others had predicted rates should have plummeted–down to pre 1990 levels. Heck, down to pre 1980 levels (given that the mercury exposure from infant vaccines is lower than it was then).

      Autism rates didn’t plummet.

      Wow. The whole “1 in 50” mitochondria dysfunction misunderstanding. You should get science from scientists, not publicists like David Kirby. He’s the one who promoted the 1 in 50 paper with his own misinterpretation. He’s the one who said “The potential implications for autism, then, are staggering“. Even Kirby didn’t say that 1 in 50 *have* mitochondrial dysfunction. He posed the question that 1 in 50 were “potentially at risk”. Kirby didn’t understand the science then, you don’t understand his misunderstanding now.

      Joe, you show, over and over all across the internet, how little value there is in the “Google Ph.D.”

  24. TLPG March 19, 2012 at 12:19 #

    Joe, it takes a few drops of PURE mercury to contaminate a lake – not ethyl mercury!

    If what you suggest is true about ethyl mercury, then every single vaccinated child would be Autistic. Guess what? They aren’t. End of.

  25. Chris March 19, 2012 at 17:32 #

    joe:

    Chris I believe it’s not just mercury it’s all including the GSK and MERCK version of the MMR. You cannot,bombard an infants immune sys. with heavy metals and toxins and do no damage.

    That makes no sense. No version of an MMR vaccine has ever contained thimerosal. One way to tell that someone has no clue what they are talking about as far as vaccines are concerned is when they bring up “heavy metal” and MMR in the same sentence.

    joe, your Google and Bible studies are failing you. Perhaps it is time to enroll in an adult basic education course at your local community college. Once you get up to speed by qualifying for English 100, you might want to take a basic course in biology.

  26. Krebiozen March 19, 2012 at 17:35 #

    Joe,

    a few drops of mercury and a 20 acre lake is contaminated

    This is another example of why you shouldn’t believe things you read just because they agree with what you already think you know.

    I calculate that to contaminate a 20 acre lake 2 meters deep (about 162,000 liters) to put it at the EPA upper limit for mercury in drinking water (0.002 mg/L), you would have to add about 500 drops of mercury (324 grams). This is about 6.5 million times as much mercury as there used to be in some vaccines (never MMR as Chris points out), but isn’t any more except in some influenza vaccines, and mercury-free versions are available.

    To increase mercury concentrations in our hypothetical lake to 0.5 mg/kg, which is how much there is in some fish (some have as much as 1 mg/kg), you would have to add 81 kilograms (178 pounds) of mercury to the lake. This is about 1.6 billion times as much as there used to be in some vaccines but isn’t any more etc…

    That adds a little perspective, I think, even ignoring the distinction between inorganic and organic mercury.

  27. MikeMa March 19, 2012 at 17:58 #

    Kerbiozen & Chris,
    I can almost hear joe digging up the goalposts for imminent relocation. Formaldehyde I hear him muttering. Fetal cells. It has to be something in the damn vaccines, right?

    Slight OT: I recognize Hg as a heavy metal but Al? Not heavy at all IIRC. Is Al classified as heavy?

    • Sullivan March 19, 2012 at 18:34 #

      “Not heavy at all IIRC. Is Al classified as heavy?”

      No.

      Very off-topic, in some case Al it isn’t even classified as a metal, but a semi-metal or mettaloid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metalloid#Aluminium

      Krebiozen,

      thanks for that estimate. I was thinking about doing my own back-of-the-envelope calculation. The one drawback is that Joe will likely try to show us his own estimations. I’ve seen him in other places going going on and on (and on and on) with bad assumptions and bad math.

  28. joe March 19, 2012 at 18:54 #

    All children have a toxic tipping point, that differs from child to child. And then, there is the susceptibility factor. The same that was in play, in the 1900’s to 1950’s with mercury teething powders causing mercury poisoning. Using logic dictates, if you had a susceptible group that could not handle the mercury back then you have one now! So, where you say all children would be Autistic that’s not the case when using susceptibility as a factor. May I remind you, the IOM suggested they not! ever look for a susceptible group! that is more sensitive to the mercury exposure. [That was verified by ex NIH president Healy] Using plain common sense, and a look at the sicknesses our children are dealing with today something is very bad & wrong! The group also said, the fact that the Autism was not falling yet could be explained by the use of Thimerosal flu shots in pregnant women.

    And I recall, the Dir. of the CDC asking that pregnant women and children 6 mos to two yr’s old get their flu shots. [even if it had Thimerosal in them] And now, they are using more of the
    aluminum which is there to cause a more heighten immune response.

    In other words an immune stressor,so they just traded one problem for another one. Why? would the CDC Dir. recommend pregnant women and children 6 mos. to 2 yr’s get flu shots containing any at all Thimerosal? If she ever read the MSDS that states do not! expose pregnant women to Thimerosal! for it can cross the placenta and go into the baby and cause mild to severe mental retardation. That’s what we are seeing today! varying degrees of a mercury damage in our children. The best science, on flu shots back then when she went into pregnant women revealed that children 6 mos to two yr’s get absolutely no! benefit from the inactivated flu vaccine. So knowing, the MSDS said keep Thimerosal away from pregnant women and the fact that children 6 mos to 2 yr’s get absolutely no! benefit. Then we can come to one of two conclusions she was pumping up the numbers so the ADD ADHD Speech delay and Autism would not fall. Or she was a blithering idiot, and since Merck brought her into the fold with 2 million a yr’s salary. I would have to say that an Idiot, she was not. So that leaves only one possibility, premeditated poisoning of the children. So that the numbers did not dip, for chronic diseases. She knew, and she understood very well. If they did fall, it would be very very
    apparent and very evident what had happened to a generation of American children. And the current dangerous vaccine program would be toast.

    That is why the IOM agreed to the plea to do the will of the CDC Marie McCormick the CDC would like you to say “well these things are pretty safe on a population basis. Key word population basis, for they knew and have always said we at the CDC cannot(rule out) the possibility that this maybe happening on a susceptible population basis.

    And history shows that the prestigious IOM, took a dive for their masters at the CDC. Here’s your proof.

    From the minutes, of the IOM meeting.

    From the IOM leaked minutes, leaked because someone there did not like being ordered to find no causation. For that would not be, as you have always put it. (True Science)

    The IOM caved to the demands of the CDC, to use selective evidence
    and fulfill their dirty backroom CDC / IOM contract.

    Byron child magazine had been told, it was in their contract to find no! causation. That’s why, when they asked to see such contract the spokes person for the CDC Curtis Allen said it the contract is only available in heavily redacted blacked out format.

    The CDC is only supposed to conduct business [in the public eye] with complete transparency. What a Joke on us, what the hell are they blacking anything out for? Isn’t that, like hiding the damage done?

    That reminds me, of the presidential order to seal the VSD Data forever. Their proof, that vaccines are safe and do not! cause Autism. Why would you seal your proof, you are right? The plot to
    cover up, thickens.

    Two senators wrote then President Bush “why are you sealing the VSD for one and why would you seal it for ever?

    “frankly it’s as though you first robbed the bank and you are trying to hide the proof of the damage done” Now mister president, we want any and all communications between you and
    your staff. And anyone, who would not want this to come to light.

    The president decides, to not seal the VSD forever.

    They, the IOM delivers what they were ordered to do;

    “the evidence favors a rejection of a link”.

    But, that’s not what their own leaked! IOM Minutes reveal, in fact they reveal a different story, that says this; Taken from the original minutes, that’s why they appear as they do so you want say I am spreading misinformation.

    “We’ve got a dragon by the tail here,” states a committee member in the
    transcript. “At the end of the line, what we know is – and I agree –
    that
    the more negative that presentation [the report] is, the less likely
    people
    are to use vaccination, immunization, and we know what the results of
    that
    will be. We are kind of caught in a trap. How we work our way out of
    the
    trap, I think, is the charge.”

    One is not caught in a trap, if one finds with a good conscience and good science that the “the evidence favors a rejection of a link” And,you do not have to work your way out of something you are not in.

    So we are caught in a trap, and how we work our way out of the trap I think is the charge.

    It appears they are trying to convince them selves,it’s ok to lie to the American public about the mass poisoning of their American children.

    As long as it saves, the to big to fail vaccine program. And the Billions, that the manufacturer would lose in lawsuits.

    In doing so, caving to the demand of the CDC the IOM was and still is !!! guilty of poisoning more children. [After the fact]

    May I remind all who are in this cover up, that these are American children you are poisoning. That you took an oath, to protect.

    LBRB

    Are you saying that Congressman Armey from Tx never put protection for all lawsuits concerning Thimerosal and Autism in the homeland security bill?

    Are you saying the president never tried to seal the VSD forever
    after that motion to protect the maker of Thimerosal by armey was defeated?

    Are you saying, that the Senate bill 3 protecting America from terrorism 2005 never existed? Giving every fallen solders family
    100 thousand dollars, just so they could get what they really wanted that was in the back of the bill. Giving then Attny. Gen. Ashcroft total control over all lawsuits concerning damage done
    to American children by Thimerosal?

    Are you saying after that was defeated by the parents and some
    caring Representatives and researchers. That 10 shotgun bills
    all protecting the maker of Thimerosal never existed.

    Why would anybody go through that much trouble trying to cover up
    a disaster that according to you never happened?

    It looks like you and other people like you, are guilty of trying
    to rewrite history.

    One other thing, when a researcher finally got into the VSD and
    was looking for 2.48 times risk whittled down by selective use of the VSD data to 1.59 below legal 2.00. He found 11 and 27 times risk DPT VS non Thimerosal DPT and before you attack this decent researcher. I heard with my own ears and seen with my own eyes at a Vaccines as a cause for Autism congressional hearing.

    Someone one from our own health agency,admit with his head down an a whisper we found 11 time risk. I am at a loss for words, that you on your blog would defend this atrocity against our most precious American resource. If it is not as you have said a job to defend Pharma, then what makes you unable to except the facts that our children have been dealt a already predetermined losing
    hand of cards in this game to protect the vaccine makers at all cost?

    • Sullivan March 19, 2012 at 19:01 #

      Joe,

      check your calendar. It’s 2012. Evidence of Harm was, what, 7 years ago. So much has changed. So much of EOH was poorly researched and overhyped to begin with. If you want to spin your wheels talking about the VSD (which is open to legitimate researchers), riders on the homeland security act and thimerosal (which has been out of infant vaccines long enough that we should have seen the huge effects people predicted)–if this is what you want to do, you know where there are people who are still interested.

      You are NOT going to go on and on here like you do at the Huffington Post.

  29. joe March 19, 2012 at 19:17 #

    I do thank you for one thing, you allow us parents to put what we believe the truth is no matter how damning it is.

    That’s the way it should be, on the net. Truth only when it concerns
    the health, of the children of this planet.

    So, thank you! you have been more than fair in that respect.

    We should all agree to fight for only good clean vaccine, if that is at all possible. For me, dealing with what I deal with that jury is still out.

    My severely vaccine damaged child had a very bought with the
    fake bowel disorder last night and did not go to bed till 5:oo
    in the AM he was up trying to poop. Gas makes every thing funny
    or extremely painful. While the Autism experts, at the Autism centers of excellence play in the playground of genetics. While
    the children suffer, from a real medical disorder.

    There is one thing, that you great minds might find interesting
    his psychosis get worse when he is trying to poop. He starts running screaming and laughing until he poops over and over and then calm seems to be restored. That’s the bowel disorder from
    hell that Wakefield discovered. He never! abandoned our children even when faced with the loss of his medical license and his own country. Say what you want, he is still a Hero in my eyes and in Gods too.

    • Sullivan March 19, 2012 at 21:34 #

      “I do thank you for one thing, you allow us parents to put what we believe the truth is no matter how damning it is.”

      I am a parent. The owner of this blog is a parent. Many of the contributors here (both in terms of comments and articles) are parents. If you think of this discussion as “parents of autistic kids are all of one thinking on this” you are very much incorrect.

  30. Krebiozen March 19, 2012 at 20:20 #

    Sullivan,

    The one drawback is that Joe will likely try to show us his own estimations.

    Judging by his contributions to this thread I dearly hope not.

  31. Chris March 19, 2012 at 20:32 #

    MikeMa:

    Slight OT: I recognize Hg as a heavy metal but Al? Not heavy at all IIRC. Is Al classified as heavy?

    Not even close. There is a reason that it is commonly used for airplane skins. Aluminum is also the most common metal type element on this planet’s crust. There is no way to escape eating or breathing it everyday. You cannot even escape getting it into your skin and muscle if you scrape your knee on soil.

    Joe seems to be posting lots of words, but nothing of substance. So, Joe, after you get banned from here for fact free grandstanding, do take my advice and enroll in your local community college.

  32. joe March 19, 2012 at 21:29 #

    Watch this

    http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=DFBE7C32CBDBF43B7342333B7D827EB0
    : BlaylockWellnessCenter.com and RussellBlaylockMD.com

    • Sullivan March 19, 2012 at 21:45 #

      Sorry joe,

      I’ve seen enough Ruseel Blaylock and Natural News. These are not reliable sources in my opinion.

  33. joe March 19, 2012 at 22:02 #

    I never said the MMR contains mercury, it can’t it would kill the live viruses. But the measles are being found. in the children’s lower bowels that’s a fact. They are not! wild strain but vaccine strain also.

    In the past the single M – M – R said do not give within weeks of another live virus. Reason, was it could set up residence in the body. That was a warning, just like not mixing Thimerosal with Aluminum was a warning. Like all warnings, those in vaccine safety never heeds.

    If the measles is being found in the lower bowel,wouldn’t there be any kind of inflammation in the children’s bowel also.

    And knowing that, could the inflammation cause an obstruction of
    bowel? It does!

    It’s things like that, that should be investigated in the bodies of our children. By the useless deaf dumb and blind Federally funded Autism centers of so call excellence.

    As Dr. Blaylock says, most Dr’s have no idea what is in a vaccine
    or even how they work.

    And if you had told me, that there was mercury and all the other crap in the children’s vaccines. I would not, have a problem with my sons health. That, would be real informed consent.

  34. TLPG March 19, 2012 at 22:18 #

    All children have a toxic tipping point, that differs from child to child. And then, there is the susceptibility factor. The same that was in play, in the 1900’s to 1950’s with mercury teething powders causing mercury poisoning.

    Yet again, that is PURE mercury and NOT ethyl mercury! Dental amalgams came from the same source IIRC. All of which have been disproven to have anything to do with Autism.

  35. McD March 19, 2012 at 22:40 #

    joe

    I have just read, that the skeptics involved in attacking the parents on these articles. Their leader is a wicked person, to say the least. There is even a picture at the provided link i’m giving of BMJ’s Fiona Godlee addressing a skeptic meeting? It all makes since now! wait till you read how morally sick these scum buckets are. One is a professional witness used against children, that have been molested. That now! makes perfect since,if you have no respect for children. You would not give a damn, if someone is poisoning raping or even killing them.

    Good lord. You must talking about Elizabeth Loftus I believe, and her expose of the Jane Doe case. Brilliant work by a brilliant woman.
    http://www.csicop.org/si/show/who_abused_jane_doe_the_hazards_of_the_single_case_history_part_1/

    Joe, in NZ prenant women are excluded from flu shots. There are no shots for pregnant women at all. ASD gym class was packed last night with a bunch of happy bouncy excited healthy kids (out here in the sticks, most parents can’t afford to have bio-med and restrictive diets). According to you these kids shouldn’t exist.

    You do know what Wakefield’s theory was, don’t you? VIRUSES. That in his discussion he doesn’t mention heavy metals or adjuvants, or formaldehyde or any other of the subsequently shifted goal-posts of the anti-vax movement. He discussed the risks of infection in genetically susceptable kids, who he suggests may “POSSIBLY” even be vulnerable to attenuated viral strains (note: he presented no evidence for this leap of logic that he made – this was reckless speculation). That was his rationale for condemning the MMR – it had a triple dose of POSSIBLE (based on a hunch) risk.

    Without the inappropriate publicity, docudrama, and the subsequently discovered conflicts of interest, ethics breaches, and fraud, his paper would have just been forgotten after failure to replicate the findings.

    Wakefield wasn’t an anti-vaxxer back then. He was probably keeping his options open to see where the money lay. He states in his discussion the risks of the actual diseases, and he was working on his own vaccine. He is just using the anti-vax parents. He manipulated them then, and he is doing it now.

    So if the problem is virses, vaccinating poses far far less risk than contracting the disease. Wakefield knows this. He is in a position to reassure parents about vaccinating – even if he still maintains an objection to the MMR – and he is not doing it. Instead he is letting children get sick and he is exploiting their parents.

  36. joe March 19, 2012 at 23:20 #

    Not at all true in fact women dentist have a unusually high rates of Autism.

    Your assuming the Ethyl mercury is less toxic than methyl. You are assuming wrong, Because you know by now the Ethyl crosses the BBB easier than does the methyl version. And the there’s little Hannah standing in the way of your argument, with a Mitochondria Disorder.

    Thimersol that turns into Inorganic mercury is the most damaging to the Mitochondria. Next most damaging is MSG both of which was and still is in children’s vaccines.

    It appears the one carbon removed, that creates the preservative Thimerosal from the chemistry make up of mercury has produced a medical monster. Able to punch into the cells, in an experiment
    and cause apoptosis neuron cell death. It was confirmed by dye that was found in the cells, with the Thimerosal. Also it was just the opposite on methyl mercury it could not penetrate the cells.

    In other words, there was no die penetrating the cells in the methyl mercury experiment. In the same amount of time.

    Then you also have to agree, or you should. That is if if you decide to not lie to your own self. The route of exposure, is
    more damaging through injection of mercury. Than ingested
    ever could from teething powders.

    It would do you good, to look up the words being used by the industry and people like you back then in that incident with mercury poisoning.

    It was said back then, that kind of thinking is what caused the prolonging of the pinks epidemic. Your kind of thinking, is what
    is causing the prolonging of the Autism and bowel suffering of
    the little children.

    We, really should have learned from history. And we would have, except for the fact it’s was a state mandated mistake that has led to a lost and very damaged very expensive generation of American children.

  37. joe March 19, 2012 at 23:25 #

    Not at all true in fact women dentist have a unusually high rates of Autism in their children. Sorry about the mistake.

  38. joe March 19, 2012 at 23:43 #

    “If you were informed that mercury in vaccines might double the risk of your son developing motor tics, increase his risk of “phonic tics” by nearly two-and-a-half times, and possibly cause speech, attention or behavioral problems in school, would you still allow him to be injected with the heavy metal — which, by the way, is 100 times more neurotoxic than that lead coating on his Chinese toys?”

    My son chewed toys flat!from china for a decade. Doctors said it won’t hurt a thing, after all they are just toys. Just after his
    vaccine induced encephalitis, he began to chew and sniff anything and everything like a rat. Does anybody here think my son just might have heavy metal Toxicity? Or, am I lying to get money?

  39. joe March 19, 2012 at 23:45 #

    Should my son be chelated at least for the lead.

  40. Thomas March 19, 2012 at 23:57 #

    “I do thank you for one thing, you allow us parents to put what we believe the truth is no matter how damning it is.”

    While you, joe, continue to attack parents for doing nothing but telling the truth.

    Why do you suppose that Kev and Sullivan allow you to post at length here, while the folks at AOA openly censor opposing posts. Which side is acting like it has something to hide?

  41. Matthew cline March 20, 2012 at 00:29 #

    @Joe:

    The teams found that the vaccines were pushing the immune system beyond it’s metabolic reserves.

    If vaccines could push the immune system “beyond it’s metabolic reserves” (whatever that means), then experiencing the full blown disease would do the same. Meaning that catching measles/HepB/pertussis/etc would cause autism.

    All children have a toxic tipping point,

    “Toxic tipping point”? Wouldn’t that imply that any poison can cause autism? Also, surely cases of “classical” poisoning would usually be post the tipping point, so shouldn’t cases of mass classical poisoning in children be associated with lots of autism? Meaning, if what you said is true, then the children who suffered from Minamata disease and who used mercury teething powders should have had a high rate of autism.

  42. joe March 20, 2012 at 03:38 #

    I have video from minamata and their children’s behavior looks
    identical to my sons arm flapping and stemming. In fact my son
    was in a PSA on Autism & Mercury poisoning. It showed children from then and children from now. Also, the route of delivery is another reason it looks different from pinks disease. To set the record straight, you may have been wrong about the teething powders being the minamata bay disaster.

    Minamata bay disaster, was eating mercury contaminated fish.

    • Sullivan March 20, 2012 at 04:50 #

      What was the autism rate of the people of Minimata?

      Mercury poisoning does *not* look like autiism. Autism does *not* look like mercury poisoning. To my knowledge there is one researcher who has focused on both: Patricia Rodier. She testified at the Omnibus and went into detail about the fact that autism does not resemble mercury poisoning.
      https://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2009/04/omnibus-expert-patricia-rodier/

      OK. We’ve done Minimata, pink’s disease, mitochondrial dysfunction, toxic tipping points…. basically the entire David Kirby playbook.

      “Should my son be chelated at least for the lead.”

      Have you taken your son to a medical toxicologist for an opinion and/or treatment? If you have this question, please take your child to someone trained and experienced in the treatment of intoxication. That does not mean, in my opinion, someone who spent 8 hours at a DAN seminar.

  43. joe March 20, 2012 at 05:06 #

    The mercury poisoning in minamata, looks like a very bad case of what we call severe Autism. Not the mild cases, hence Mild to severe mental retardation MSDS. That the maker says a pregnant woman who has a flu vaccine, with Thimerosal can expect for her Thimerosal damaged child.

    Pinks on the other hand, was 1 in 500 children.

    Look up my sons PSA video, and you will understand it’s the same behavior. And just in case, you think he was coached into acting like that. He is severely autistic, and would not understand any
    thing I was saying to that extent.

    • Sullivan March 20, 2012 at 05:45 #

      joe,

      I used to work with someone who had actual mercury poisoning. I’ve seen it. It isn’t like autism. The mercury poisoning in Minimata did not look like autism. Hence the discussion of autism symptoms and mercury poisoning symptoms by Patricia Rodier.

      You do realize that the “autism, a novel form of mercury poisoning” was written by people who had little to no experience in medicine and toxicology. I don’t take medical advice from MBA’s. Especially MBA’s who clearly don’t understand what they are talking about.

      With that, I think this is basically done. If you want to rehash the David Kirby talking points, have fun with that somewhere else.

  44. Julian Frost March 20, 2012 at 06:26 #

    @Joe:

    in fact women dentist have a unusually high rates of Autism in their children.

    Citation needed.

  45. Wendy Stephen March 20, 2012 at 08:13 #

    “………….. But the measles are being found. in the children’s lower bowels that’s a fact. They are not! wild strain but vaccine strain also.”

    Source for this please Joe.

  46. Lawrence March 20, 2012 at 10:45 #

    @Wendy – I’m sure his source will be Wakefield’s retracted Lancet article….

    • Sullivan March 20, 2012 at 14:41 #

      Lawrence, Wendy,

      the source for the “measles in the gut” comments is a later paper by Mr. Wakefield’s group. Potential viral pathogenic mechanism for new variant inflammatory bowel disease. There is a later study which was presented at an IMFAR conference but never published. That was by a group from Wake Forrest University (the lead author is an editor of the online journal “Autism Insights”. For those who don’t know of the journal, it would welcome a paper supporting Wakefield and doesn’t appear to have high standards for review).

      The Uhlmann paper was discussed at length in the Omnibus Autism Proceeding. The group that did the study had major flaws in their procedures. Mr. Wakefield was aware that his own group at the Royal Free had shown samples were negative for measles virus and that other groups were showing false positives (Wakefield and his supporters discount these results claiming that they weren’t sensitive enough.)

      A paper by Maddy Hornig et al. Lack of association between measles virus vaccine and autism with enteropathy: a case-control study. showed that the persistent-measles-infection idea of Wakefield was wrong.

      In a series of gross misinterpretations, Mr. Wakefield’s supporters are claiming that Hornig et al. and subsequent papers by Ian Lipkin’s group actually support Mr. Wakefield and that there are subtle signs that the team is behind Wakefield. Note that these Wakefield supporters don’t quote Prof. Lipkin or other team members. That group is well aware that their work is the final refutation of Andrew Wakaefield and they stand by that fact. Yes, I’ve checked.

  47. Matthew cline March 20, 2012 at 19:09 #

    @Joe:

    I have video from minamata and their children’s behavior looks identical to my sons arm flapping and stemming.

    First, that’s one symptom of severe autism. Two different medical problems sharing a single symptoms doesn’t make them the same.

    Second, one of the symptoms of Minamata disease is ataxia, where ataxia consists of gross lack of coordination of muscle movements. Arm flapping due to a lack of coordination is different than the arm flapping in extreme autism (unless you want to claim that a lack of coordination is a symptom of autism).

  48. David N. Brown March 21, 2012 at 18:04 #

    @Joe, Matthew,
    “I have video from minamata and their children’s behavior looks identical to my sons arm flapping and stemming.”

    As Matt points out, this is not a sound basis to argue a common cause, but I think there is a more fundamental problem. It seems to me that “flapping” is actually a “normal” childhood behavior: A baby shaking a rattle, for instance, could pretty well answer the description! The presumable difference is that the autistic behavior may go to greater extremes, and/or persist much longer.

    David N. Brown
    Mesa, Arizona

  49. Christine Westbrook March 21, 2012 at 20:47 #

    I assume Joe is talking about this film

    [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihFkyPv1jtU]] At about 45 seconds there is a woman “flapping” but if you look at the rest of the film of her and others it is obviously uncontrolable tremors.

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